Young dog will not pick up a duck

Ed Askew

Ed Askew

Well-known member
Kind of embarrassing to post this but my new lab, 14 months old I've trained myself will not pick up a duck. She's the 4th dog I've trained, the first one was in 1976 or thereabouts. I've had the same problem with every one of my dogs, but this one seems to be the worst. Otherwise she is a great dog and will do anything I ask with dummies. I knew I should have gotten some quail or pigeons 6 months ago and killed a few for her but they're not easy to come by and I got distracted with other issues, told myself we'd make a dove hunt that didn't happen. Then opening weekend we had no water and killed scratch. This week I limited out 2 days in a row but the ponds up in Arkansas were icy and she doesn't like ice! She's too young for ice water I think. To compound the issue I had on the advice of one of my training books used a partially thawed frozen duck to train her when she was about 7 or 8 months old; she hated that thing and I forced the issue on her. I know now that was a big mistake. Now, quail are even harder to find I don't know where I might trap a pigeon does anyone have any suggestions?

Ed.
 
I really don't have the answer, but Kodi was in ice at 7-8 months....And was piling pigeons at 4 months... She may snap out of all of these issues with age, but if all of your dogs have gone through this stage, it must bee inthe genetics (if they are of the same blood lines) or in the training. JMO
 
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I would try yelling... "GET THE DAMN DUCK", if that didn't work I'd yell it over and over.
 
Unfortunately that is why you have to force break labs. I think you can thank the field trial breeds for that. Just no need for natural retrieving ability or a decent nose when you can control them like a robot and force them to retrieve using pain. I am only half serious but... that is my take on at least part of your problem.

You could try some clipped winged pigeons that often times gets them excited enough to retrieve.

Chris
 
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Hi Ed - To make you feel a little better, let me tell you that I managed to make my first lab gun shy. I left him with a friend and asked him to fire a gun when he fed him while I went away on my honeymoon !.......strange place..........no initial exposure to noise with caps........no big surprise when I think about it now. I called Richard Wolters who was alive at the time and I was using his book as a training guide. Dick explained that dogs associate and I had set up an unpleasant association. I asked him what I could do........he frankly told me that it might be too late but if I was determined to keep the dog, to START OVER. Forget the gun.........go to a cap pistol with no caps at mealtime..........after a few weeks add caps.........then after a few more work up to a blank pistol......then add the blank pistol to dummies.........then add a freshly killed duck and the blank pistol............all of which I did over months and I can still remember the first duck shot after that with the 12GA.......the dog took off like a rocket into the cover and came back with the duck and with his tail in the air...........maybe this story can give you an idea about how to start over with the ducks..........maybe add a couple feathers to a dummy for a while..................set em up for a lot of little successes..........maybe a freshly Killed pigeon...........I would skip anything frozen..........make a big fuss over the little steps and make the associations simple and easy to do and hopefully the pup will get it...........birds smell great to a dog but there's a lot going on during a hunt with the gun..........watch out with cripples until the dog is eager to retrieve ducks which are a mouthful.........I have seen cripples bite a dog in the face and it can put a young dog off.
Nothing wrong with getting some help from a training group or a local pro but I would try to avoid forcing fetch unless it becomes necessary.......hard on you and the dog.
sarge
 
Ed Ionly ever had that problem with one dog , my Maggie and she turned out to be my dog of a lifetime. I had worked and worked with Maggie, including pigeons and pheasants, but never a duck. Came the opening day of her first hunt I droped a Black Duck. Sent her for it , she charged out picked the bird up and spit it out. The next bird she wouldn't even go.. I was furious, ready to give the dog away.. That weekend we were still fishing ( Middle of Nov.). I went up to Big Reed Pond in Montauk brought Maggie just so she could have some exercize. She was out running in the bushes when I dropped a Bufflehead, she came running at the sound of the shot. I had to throw a rock to get her going in the right direction and she made her first retrieve. The next bird was a body shot Redhead that fell across the pond and up the hill a 200yd swim and 1/4 mile up the hill . Maggie watched the bird drop. I sent her and the rest was history.. Perhaps the Black Duck was just to big for her to start out and the Buffie was just the right size. I dont know what goes through a dogs brain. I do know one thing when it come to finding ducks my Chessies are a lot smarter than me. Try something smaller and see what happens.
 
Ed,
I know you have been around here long enough to know who is who and what they really mean.
I think the post above on going back to basics is the right track.
First step, you have to decide if you can commit to this. Might take a year or more to get back on track.

Then get in touch with a good dog person----- Travis---- and go over the past history (Honestly) to establish some of the things that need to be over come, and then form a plan.

Most dogs want to please you if you are their Alpha.
If that is there then you need the time and small steps to build the dogs base back up. I dont think its too big to overcome, but I also dont think, "Force Fetch" is going to be the only thing required to get back on track.

If you answer yes to question 1 then let me know if you dont hear from T if you PM him with a few questions to get a grip on how to plan the next moves.

Bob
 
Ed,
I know you have been around here long enough to know who is who and what they really mean.
I think the post above on going back to basics is the right track.
First step, you have to decide if you can commit to this. Might take a year or more to get back on track.

Then get in touch with a good dog person----- Travis---- and go over the past history (Honestly) to establish some of the things that need to be over come, and then form a plan.

Most dogs want to please you if you are their Alpha.
If that is there then you need the time and small steps to build the dogs base back up. I dont think its too big to overcome, but I also dont think, "Force Fetch" is going to be the only thing required to get back on track.

If you answer yes to question 1 then let me know if you dont hear from T if you PM him with a few questions to get a grip on how to plan the next moves.

Bob
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agreed I am assuming the the basics have been done if you havent done formal obedience I rather not hunt with a dog at all, If it's to the point that you are yelling and need to worry about what the pup is doing every second, hunting with out a dog is much more enjoyable
 
Ed, I am in the FF camp with this dog. you have already tried pressure picking up the the half thawed duck and she probably has associated that negative experience with ducks. You didn't nessacarily do anything wrong, many dogs aren't overly found of picking game up, but that may have exacerbated the problem . If your not down with FFing then dog its going to be a long process building her up and it may or may not work. Good luck
 
I had the same issues with my lab on pheasants. I started him on pigeons and when I got to a whole dead pheasant he didn't what any parts of it. I used fresh wings on a bumper and that seem to take care of it.
 
You're getting a lot of good advice Ed,
Any time you run into a training problem go back a couple steps and simplify what you are trying to do.
If you have the basics, try the wings on a bumper to get her used to feathers and procede from there.
I like the Dobbs force fetch program but I'm not a believer in FF for all dogs that won't be run in tests.
To get your pup excited about birds I like the clipped pigeon idea and buffies or teal are a great next step.
Just remember there is no time schedule and progress to the next step only after you have the current
training step successfully taught. Don't test the dog TRAIN your pup.
Training birds are always a problem but next time start with wings the day you bring your pup home.
Good luck, John
 
Ed
All these problems are sent to try us. This is what I would do in your situation and faced with your problem, first of all I would go back to basics and get a teal wing and rub my hands all over it so she could get my scent, then torment her with the wing and get her excited, then I would I would throw it a few yards and let her run in and pick it up, then take it of her and give her a good praising and repeat this for a few days until she is quite confident at picking it up without any problems, then the next stage would be to get a 1/2lb puppy dummy and attatch a pair of teal wings to it and again rub your hands all over it so she can get your scent, then give her a couple of short retreives, each time when she brings it back to you, make a big fuss of her.
I will say at this stage dont worry to much about the disaplin, we are trying at this stage to make everything one big game, has pups learn through play, when she is confident at bringing that dumy back with tealwings attatch to it, repeat the same procedure with a 1lb dummy with mallard wings attatched
to it and hopefully your retrieving problems will be resolved. when training her in this way dont be in to much of a rush to get results everthing his a game with the pup and dont forget you are taking her back to basics and she will learn through play.
Take care and God Bless
Eddie and Amber
Its all about Building that Bond.
 
Unfortunately that is why you have to force break labs. I think you can thank the field trial breeds for that. Just no need for natural retrieving ability or a decent nose when you can control them like a robot and force them to retrieve using pain. I am only half serious but... that is my take on at least part of your problem.

You could try some clipped winged pigeons that often times gets them excited enough to retrieve.

Chris
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I cry Bull $H%T!
You don't end up with a dog not picking up a bird and point your finger ANYWHERE else but at yourself. Sorry but Chris if you think Field Trialers have bred the natural ability out of retrievers you sir are living under a rock. I grew up in a Field Trialing household and my father taught hold and then reinforced it. Not because it was a trial dog. Our dogs were hunting dogs first and trial dogs because they could. I've had Chessies since 1983 and some have been out of Field Trial stock and some not. All natural retrievers. When I started to play the game, I learned the proper way to force fetch a dog. Of which is used in most sporting breeds to create a non-slip retriever. But my dogs are hunting dogs first and I will NEVER have a hunting dog that has not been force fetch finished. Including my Lab that is total Field trial breeding. Best duck dog yet. You can't blame the dog nor it's breeding. You can blame the owner for waiting to train or trying to finish training in the duck blind. Now, Bring your dog to ANY marsh and sail a cripple 275 yds down a shore and see if your non-trial stock dog can make that retrieve or run that water blind without you disrupting the entire marsh. Some may, but your stacking your deck if you buy a dog out of titled, proven parentage.

So, to the real problem here, them man needs help getting his dog to retrieve a duck. Well, frozen anything ain't the answer. Room temp duck (call a local game farm or pro retriever trainer and buy one) Go in your yard and play keep away from your dog with a bumper until she is chasing you around to try and get it. Teach her this game and make it fun. Now, grab a dead duck and play the same game. Make this dog think it is her idea and DO NOT take if from her until you have told her what a fantastic GOOD DOG she is. Sorry for the rant Chris but your statement is the farthest from the truth. Field trialers breed for Marking ability, prey drive, health, hips, eyes, and trainability. The only reason a trial dog will stop on a single blast from a whistle is because he was taught that, and the only reason he'll take a cast into the wind is because he was trained to do so. it's not a robotic function. It's a function of training. And there is a reason for that. It's called handling on a blind retrieve.
 
Force Fetch Force Fetch Force Fetch - but done CORRECTLY!!! Putting pressure on the dog starting with a duck is the best way to to create a negative impression abotu ducks.

+1 on picking up Evan Grahams books, may I also suggest Butch Goodwins "Retrievers from the Inside Out"

If possible get with a local reputable trainer to help you out. Its REALLY hard for us trainers to diagnose the definate problem without seeing the dog in person. When I get these type phone calls I always try to set up one on one meetings to try and help solve the problem

Feel free to shoot me a PM if I can be of any assistance.


Another +1 to Ron. Chris, and all the others who bash force fetch, you foks really need to pay better attention to what is going on the "dog world" ie field trials, hunt tests, ect ect. Then watch these same dogs in the hunting field. Its art in motion. The FT and HT folks do more to better the retrieving breeds than any other, certainly more than Billy Bob and his "gud huntin' dawg" who breeds it with his cousin Willy's "gud huntin' dawg" with no health clearances ect ect
 
I had this same issue with my second dog. It was very aggravating. The good news is that your dog loves to fetch. If you have a friend with a retriever. Let both dogs go after the duck. Make sure your dog has a head start. The dog most likely will pick it up becasue they won't want the other dog to get it. With my dog I bought a dokken deadfowl and she wouldn't pick that up either at first. I was on a walk with my buddy and his non duck hunting ball fetching machine. After 2 tosses with the dokken and the other dog Lucy has never refused to pick up a bird and delivers to hand like she was trained to do with dummies. That first toss with the docken she went out to it. looked at it and would not pick it up. Then Tucker came running over to get it and she picked it up once he got close. I would give that a shot before going through force fetching. Just my opinion and experience take it for what it's worth and good luck.
 
Thanks for the info guys, esp. Todd, very sage advice Todd of course that's the FIRST thing I did and it was to little effect. No of these 4 dogs of mine 2 were from the same bloodline out in Oregon, my first dog was from a Chicago area sire and this one is a Brit. 1976 was "Water Dog" days and I think everyone's progressed from that including me as far as training methods. I think someone made the point the dog shouldn't be trained in the duck blind and that's right and the reason all of my dogs had some problem pickup up a duck because it's always been difficult for me to locate live birds to train with and I've gotten them all over it out in the field but it is a pain in the but to do it that way for sure. I've never forced fetched any of my dogs and the first 3 were awesome hunting retrievers although I've never had any of them in a hunt test or field trial not that interested in that sort of thing. I think what messed me up with this dog was using the frozen duck early on, and then the fact that she has a very small mouth and it's hard for her to get a duck in her mouth. Lastly, normally I'd be warming a new dog up with a lot of teal killed in the early season but this year I'm up in Arkansas and it's all big ducks no little teal. She's been picking up bumpers with wings on them for months and she loves those wings, it's just the whole duck that gets her. She'll find the duck, sniff it, lick it, etc just doesn't want to pick it up. The dog does everything else I want her to do, takes hand signals, finds blinds without a problem, perfect on obedience, very calm, quiet and still in the duck blind.

Well thanks again for all the good advice, it's always interesting to see a lot of different points of view on dog issues. One way or another I'll have this dog retrieving ducks I know that for sure. I love these dog threads its fun to see how long and passionate they can get.

Ed.
 
Thanks for the info guys, esp. Todd, very sage advice Todd of course that's the FIRST thing I did and it was to little effect. No of these 4 dogs of mine 2 were from the same bloodline out in Oregon, my first dog was from a Chicago area sire and this one is a Brit. 1976 was "Water Dog" days and I think everyone's progressed from that including me as far as training methods. I think someone made the point the dog shouldn't be trained in the duck blind and that's right and the reason all of my dogs had some problem pickup up a duck because it's always been difficult for me to locate live birds to train with and I've gotten them all over it out in the field but it is a pain in the but to do it that way for sure. I've never forced fetched any of my dogs and the first 3 were awesome hunting retrievers although I've never had any of them in a hunt test or field trial not that interested in that sort of thing. I think what messed me up with this dog was using the frozen duck early on, and then the fact that she has a very small mouth and it's hard for her to get a duck in her mouth. Lastly, normally I'd be warming a new dog up with a lot of teal killed in the early season but this year I'm up in Arkansas and it's all big ducks no little teal. She's been picking up bumpers with wings on them for months and she loves those wings, it's just the whole duck that gets her. She'll find the duck, sniff it, lick it, etc just doesn't want to pick it up. The dog does everything else I want her to do, takes hand signals, finds blinds without a problem, perfect on obedience, very calm, quiet and still in the duck blind.

Well thanks again for all the good advice, it's always interesting to see a lot of different points of view on dog issues. One way or another I'll have this dog retrieving ducks I know that for sure. I love these dog threads its fun to see how long and passionate they can get.

Ed.
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Thanks Ed, I was assuming you were a bright enough guy to adapt my suggestion to your particular sitaution. The tip works well under a lot of situations - it is my "go to" tool.

T
 
Perfect world, the dog wudda already been force fetched before the season. Obviously it aint perfect, or the op wouldnt be killing ducks and his dog not picking them up.

You can get your dog to pick up birds without force fetch. In fact, i wont ff a dog until hes a retriving maniac. Playing the yard with a fresh killed bird is right on target. Another dog is a great motivator. Getting him fired up, to where he picks it up on the scoop without thinking about it is key. Water is good, because he already swam out there, but cold water is going to make it worst, too late for water as a crutch. And since hes had a bad experience, your going to have to use a crutch and trick the dogs natrual prey drive to get him going. Dont be happy with a couple retrieves. Hes already had a bad experience, so once you get him going, get SEVERAL sessions where hes bird azz crazy before you even think of hunting him again. And the next hunt needs to be controlled, where someone can kill birds dead in front of him, and you can control him and send him.

FF can be debated all you want. it is a tool, and its the best tool for a modern trained retreiver. Done correctly, its not as hard on the dog or trainer as done incorrectly. if the dog was ff'd, you'd had a tool to move thru this.. without your stuck to tricks and gimmicks to get dog over it. And going to spend as much time getting over this humnp as it'd taken to ff the dog. Thats neither here nor there, cause its duck season and your wanting to hunt your pup. Thats just for the haters.. ya know haters gonna hate! ha.

Word to wise... dogs that have problems with one kinda bird, often have problems with various kinds of birds. So every species you can come across to throw for him (once hes going) do it. In my expereince, a dog that will pick up snipe, will pick up any game bird... so I always keep a few snipe to ff on.

I introduce dogs to birds at a young age, but limit how much I use them until they are ff'd. Lots of mouth habits can form at a young age I have to use pressure to fix. Anything I create i got to fix, is more work on me and the dog, and time I cudda spent progessing the dog. travis
 
Having had a bird issue with my dog I will second what Travis has posted. From what I have read on this issue I am wondering about the level of "prey drive" your dog has Ed. This is not the same as the drive to retrieve. Fetching a bumper or ball is one thing, but fetching an animal is a whole other kettle of fish.

Maybe Travis or another trainer can provide some insight on prey drive versus retrieve drive?

My bird issue was not what Ed is going through.

My dog was never exposed to pigeons and in a dog club puppy training class picnic test at 8 months old she refused that horrendously nasty thing. If it had been a duck she would have been all over it frozen or not.

My dog started on a duck wing at 9 weeks and was, as Travis said, driven insane, but just for a few minutes at a time. The wing was put away for another month or two, then brought out and again used on a string to drive the puppy insane. Then at six months it was a frozen spoony I had saved for this purpose and she was allowed to sniff and lick and bite for a few seconds, but she was forced by check cord to bring it back.

After the refusal at the picnic test I took me three weeks with a pigeon to get the dog interested and willing to pick the thing up. I would toss the spoonie and she would get it, then toss the pigeon.

My pup had somer behavior issues and she spent the summer with a pro up here and was FF to a point (no force to pile) due to her softness. She was starting to shut down under even voice pressure so the pro backed off training her and started training me.
 
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