A design request to the metal fabricators on the site.

R

RLLigman

Well-known member
I am contemplating trying to combine my TDB-17" trailer, via the addition of a hull cradle, and metal frame that would carry my Bankes Hercules above it. The Bankes support frame would have to tilt/rotate to allow it to launch after I dropped my TDB in the water at a ramp, enabling me to use a single boat winch for both boats.

I have considered a pair of round pipes U-bolted to the top of the boat trailer frame that would have the vertical supports nested in T-brackets that set on the frame members, that could be cotter pinned in place to minimize movement and consequent road noise and wear of the horizontal supports.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to engineer this better?
 
RLLigman said:
I am contemplating trying to combine my TDB-17" trailer, via the addition of a hull cradle, and metal frame that would carry my Bankes Hercules above it. The Bankes support frame would have to tilt/rotate to allow it to launch after I dropped my TDB in the water at a ramp, enabling me to use a single boat winch for both boats.

I have considered a pair of round pipes U-bolted to the top of the boat trailer frame that would have the vertical supports nested in T-brackets that set on the frame members, that could be cotter pinned in place to minimize movement and consequent road noise and wear of the horizontal supports.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to engineer this better?
Click to expand...

If you wish to minimize "manhandling" the set up, a system similar to this one might fit the bill. Just be aware that the support structure must be engineered to withstand road and wind forces as well as gravity. This is indeed something that should be designed and approved by a qualified engineer.
 
All good points, Dave, why I have held-off on this for so long. I saw an episode of Michigan-Outdoors years ago that featured the same set-up. Somehow the VCR tape was lost to time. The layout boat only weighs 200lbs. and would essentially sit five feet or so above the plane of the boat trailer frame. I was hoping to get some different perspectives to take to Tom Lakenen before he started fabrication.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g42441-d618207-Reviews-Lakenenland_Sculpture_Park-Marquette_Upper_Peninsula_Michigan.html
 
I made a setup like this for my 17 ft bankes and my hercules , layout was sold a bunch of years ago
not sure if I can dig up a picture.

the way it worked was I left the boat on the trailer and towed it as normal.
I made a wooden frame, out of 2 x 6's with a large pvc hinge near the back, and put that in my pick up truck bed.
it held the layout over the top of the bankes bow. and tilted to let me and a friend slide the
layout out of the bed, hinge was just past the center of the layout, to keep the weight forward in the truck
when running down the road, and the layout was roughly at the top of the pick up bed
once un strapped you would just tilt it down with a little pressure,

so the routine was to get to the ramp. unload and float the boat out of the way, then pull the truck up and jack
the trailer off to one side, this opened up the layout to slide out of the pick up bed and into the water

at the end of the day, load the layout first , then re align the trailer and load the boat.

it all worked out very well, and I wish I never sold the hercules, as it was a breeze to tow, and a hell of a boat to
hunt out of.
 
I had one that was built from 2 boat trailers. It was crude, and heavy. Decided I was not going to leave scull boat at the ramp while I hunted and sold it years ago. Rufus Brinn had one fabricated a couple years ago. It is a monster! Carries 2 SouthBay Sneakboats, has a lockable motor box, storage, electric winch....

View attachment 1512319_10203456290514207_1657265068_n.jpg


View attachment 1619634_10203456291674236_2010801758_n.jpg


View attachment 10150620_10203456290434205_375085036_n.jpg

Rick, I would think real serious about either adding a davit to the trailer or the boat and make a cradle to set the layout right on the tender. A davit that slides into a socket in/on the tender would be a sweet rig. Adding all this frame and then gaining the mechanical advantage to lift it safely is a challenge, though a nice engineering effort for sure. Rufus' is heavy! I don't think the dimensions are ideal with where the stops are on the down side. Takes a whole lot of winch torque to get it started, and if the cable fails, someone could die, and serious damage is occurring to the bottom hull.
 
Do you tow your layout behind tdb while hunting or carry across boat. If you carry across I would think a pivoting cradle system may be way to go. Cradle could be pivoted to tow down hwy, with layout in bow forward configuration. May be able to arrange it to allow sliding boat over side on launch and retrieve. At 200 lbs. thought some kind of wench would be needed for retrieval. Just my 2 cents.
 
I am not a metal fab guy. I have though about this.
My design would have a standard box frame to hold the layout boat.
Then I would have a 4 pipes coming from the trailer to the boat box frame that holding the layout boat.
2 feet from the back on each side. 2 feet from the front on each side
The 2 back would be through bolted with bushing top and bottom to allow the back to work as a pivot point.
the 2 front would have just the bushing and bolts to allow the bottom to pivot.
The top would need to have a plate that pivots and a bigger pipe then the bottom. The bottom pipe would need to fit through and be long to allow the travel to the water for the launching of the layout boat in addition the long pipe would also need a stop so that the bow does not go low. In addition I would use a separate winch mounted higher on the trailer.
 
Thank you all for your suggestions and input.

Bill and TomL, your approaches are about as far as I have gone with this idea. If you reference Dave D's pics of Rufus' design, I keep coming back to the need to have some sort of bracket to function as a stop at the pivot points at the bottom of the support legs as well.

Dave D. my Bankes Hercules is a towable design, nearly impossible to lift and pivot via a davit...but doable if needed. I initially thought of just building two cradles with spacers to keep that at the right distance to nest the boat on top of my hard cover, but determined that would essentially negate my ability to access the interior of the TDB with having to unload the layout....repeatedly.

Roy, I have a towable Bankes Hercules.
 
RLLigman said:
Thank you all for your suggestions and input.
, I keep coming back to the need to have some sort of bracket to function as a stop at the pivot points at the bottom of the support legs as well.
.
Click to expand...

A stop or ridged point in which the movable portion of the frame can be pinned in place would be an absolute necessity. One would want this both for stability and as a failsafe when going down the road. As for the force required to lift/pivot the frame/cradle, I myself would consider using hydraulics over a cable system.

These at not boat trailers, but are examples of how hydraulic cylinder might be utilized. One example simply tilts and the other works as a parallelogram. In the second example, notice the brace/stop arm which is pinned in place in the "road" position.

View attachment pivot.jpg



View attachment cantilever.jpg
 
Dave, I want to thank you for your initial post on this thread. I failed to even consider looking for anything on YouTube to use as reference material(euphemism for mechanical plagiarism). I looked at two examples of a hydraulic pump driven system, very smooth functioning.

I just don't see the broad value (read that as justified expense) of going with something like this to pull a 200lb layout boat out of the water and transport it with my main duckboat to hunting sites.
 
Rick, Something that needs to be considered in the proportions and design, is the ramps you will launch at. On Rufus' rig, it is a challenge to slide the bottom boat off and not bang it into the frame above. You really can't float it in a typical boat launching... and re-loading is more difficult since the trailer is positioned with out the boat for a reference. The more clearance you create the higher the top boat! Likewise, once the bottom boat is launched, then how far do you need to back down to get the top boat wet. In your case, the layout could be well forward on the trailer, and using the parallelogram vertical supports, have them angled forward in the trailer mode, and swing up and therefore back as far as possible to launch. Having a low trailer to start with will be helpful.
 
To piggy back on what DD says about launching issues.

If one were to use the pivot concept, utilizing 3 separate positions for the layout cradle.

Position (A) road positon; 100 % horizontal , height is just above the loaded tender boat. front is pivot point , rear is resting in a movable support saddle

Position (B) launching the tender boat position; Rear end of cradle is unpinned and hydraulically raised upward at 30-45 degrees giving the needed clearance to launch the tender boat in a conventional manner.

Position (C) launching the layout position; Rear end of the cradle is lowered to meet the waters surface. (the rear support brackets being swung out of the way for lowering) releasing the layout into the water in a controlled manner.

Reverse the process at the end of the hunt. The layout cradle could also be hydraulically raised any time access was need to the tender boat. The structure and hydraulic cylinders would be sized according to your load. The previous examples being grossing over built for your needs.

Rough sketch of upper end of rear support bracket.


View attachment laout bracket.jpg
 
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When I first looked at Rufus' design, the one point that jumped out at me was the long tongue length (hitch to front axle), which likely amplifies his problem.

Excellent points, Dave and HuntingDave, this is what I conceptualize each time I walk myself through the mechanics of my initial design: I need an optimal height for the four support posts to allow the motor and stern of the TDB to rise up and float clear without hitting the underside of the layout. I think what you are trying to convey is that this is not a constant, since ramp angles are variable. Correct? On the complementary side of this argument, the higher I position the layout boat cradle the more it is subject to wind turbulence forces coming off the truck capper on the two vehicle ( Initially, I thought that the tighter I could keep it to the TDB, the better off it would be, since it would be "riding" in the zone of turbulence behind the tow vehicle.)

With HuntingDave's system concept as a start-point, I may be better served to try and find someone who does CAD set-up over at Northern Michigan University.

Does anyone know any small lift capacity hydraulic cylinder manufacturers? I would guess the maximum load vector at no more than 500lb.

At this point I am quite sure I would be exceeding the maximum tow weight capacity of my existing trailer...I switched to D load series 13" Kenda radials from the bias ply C loads that were on it.
 
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Tom L said:
I made a setup like this for my 17 ft bankes and my hercules , layout was sold a bunch of years ago
not sure if I can dig up a picture.

the way it worked was I left the boat on the trailer and towed it as normal.
I made a wooden frame, out of 2 x 6's with a large pvc hinge near the back, and put that in my pick up truck bed.
it held the layout over the top of the bankes bow. and tilted to let me and a friend slide the
layout out of the bed, hinge was just past the center of the layout, to keep the weight forward in the truck
when running down the road, and the layout was roughly at the top of the pick up bed
once un strapped you would just tilt it down with a little pressure,

so the routine was to get to the ramp. unload and float the boat out of the way, then pull the truck up and jack
the trailer off to one side, this opened up the layout to slide out of the pick up bed and into the water

at the end of the day, load the layout first , then re align the trailer and load the boat.

it all worked out very well, and I wish I never sold the hercules, as it was a breeze to tow, and a hell of a boat to
hunt out of.
Click to expand...

TomL, did you ever find any pictures of your set-up?
 
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Yes RL, you are wise to remember varying ramp angles and stern rising up as it floats during launches. I had this scenario with my Hoefgen's on the rack I had built on my trailer for my 14' starcraft...
 
HDave, I currently have my TDB mounted, suspended from two true 2X12"s, carpeted and mounted vertically on a standard framed boat trailer,trailer bunks and mounts removed. IF I use the same for aft cradle system supported by four vertical supports that articulate at their junctions with the cross-braces on the trailer frame, I need only configure one fixed position cross-brace on the forward supports below the layout boat's forward keel- Bankes Hercules would be mounted stern forward due to keel depth. This would enable me to simply raise the bow end of the Hercules to enable the TDB to float clear during launch and remain out of the way during recovery by physically lifting the stern end to slide two right triangle shaped wedges in on top the boat cradle arms, one on each side, that would ensure adequate clearance of the TDB and Bankes hulls. Since there would be no rear cross-brace attached to the vertical support legs, there would be no need for additional fabrication or installation of hydraulics to lift a rigid three-point frame

A true pair carpeted 2X6"s in the 10-12' length range, mounted on edge, would likely suffice to configure as the layout boat cradle runners. If needed, I could likely cheat and install a cross-brace on the bottom of the cradle runners where the hull transitions to the bow, two thirds of the way back for additional rigidity.

I used to hunt out of a camp on the north side of a coastal lake, just inland from one of the Great Lakes( MLBob, am I being vague enough?). The camp owner, via local parlance was "good Finn",an incredibly self-reliant guy who could fabricate nearly anything. He had constructed a stone and log ramp on the shoreline that Joe Seelig and I used to launch our layout boats from. It is a great lake, since it is close enough to the adjacent Great Lake that divers move onto it during a coastal blow, and the camp sight was right under a flight corridor where mallards and puddle ducks would hop the tree-line shore and drop onto the outflow river to loaf. Forest Gump's box of chocolates... Seelig had a layout fabricated by the same couple that made Jim Wicks, Pierce, and Arnsman's, more along the lines of a east coast scooter, since it was configured with chocks and oarlocks, enabling it to be rowed. These floated a little higher than a Busick layout. The sand bench out in front of Eugene Juntilla's camp was shallow and extended well-out into the lake enabling you to walk the longlines out for deployment. After Eugene died and Joe moved to Anchorage to join an anesthesia group up there full-time, I stopped hunting the spot. I eventually regained permission via Eugene's nephew to launch from the property and sleep in the sauna for multi-day stays. Eugene's sauna was huge...enabling me to store and array my gear inside and mount my cot far enough away from the wood fired stove to remain warm and comfortable. Unfortunately, the ramp had been badly damaged by several winters of ice-action and neglect, so I was forced to launch my layout, after removing my canoe, and haul it across the grass down to the beach. Consequently, I know I can easily lift the boat with one hand and slide the spacer chock. in under the gunnels
 
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Just a quick thought. Rather than putting them on top of each other, is it possible to put them side by side? If the trailer would be too wide, can you put each on an angle slightly? I do this on one of my trailers for kayaks and it works well but I also realize that the boats being discussed here are heavier but the principle would work I would think. The picture below may be too extreme of an angle but is there for illustration purposes.

Or stack them so one boat the port side is down and the other boat the starboard side is down.



View attachment yakima-rackandroll-78-trailer-2.jpg
 
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Mark,
this would be the bottom boat riding on the trailer,with a layout boat above.
freedom_frame.jpg


I'm sure you can come along to roll it up on it's side during the load and launch process. [whistle]

 
Huntindave McCann said:
Mark,
this would be the bottom boat riding on the trailer,with a layout boat above.
[.img]http://bankesboats.com/graphics/freedom_frame.jpg[/img]

I'm sure you can come along to roll it up on it's side during the load and launch process. [whistle]
Click to expand...

I know you think the thought above may sound crazy, and it kind of does, but if you look at the way the military transports their boats across the land on a trailer, what I describe above is how they do it. Was just trying to provide a different way of looking at the problem, nothing more.

Another thought is to look at how boat manufacturers transport their product from the factory to the dealer. Many different designs on how they do this and they don't stack them one on top of the other.

Mark
 
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