limited vs full registration...

tod osier

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What is the deal with limited registration in a practical sense? I understand the standard whys and how. I accept the basic reasons and issues, but it has always bothered me beyond logically accepting why it is done. Kinda the way it bothers me to have a car with a governor - I don't want to drive 120 mph, but I don't want to be limited in actuality or theory. I guess I probably see it as not getting the full value even though I don't care to use it.

My questions are things like: do limited registration dogs sell for less than full? Do people accept limited registration dogs readily? What is the percentage of excellent dogs sold with limited? Why do breeders actually do it?

I'm not interested in any sort of debate about back yard breeding. I've never bred a dog and have no interest.
 
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tod osier said:
What is the deal with limited registration in a practical sense? I understand the standard whys and how. I accept the basic reasons and issues, but it has always bothered me beyond logically accepting why it is done. Kinda the way it bothers me to have a car with a governor - I don't want to drive 120 mph, but I don't want to be limited in actuality or theory. I guess I probably see it as not getting the full value even though I don't care to use it.

My questions are things like: do limited registration dogs sell for less than full? Do people accept limited registration dogs readily? What is the percentage of excellent dogs sold with limited? Do people accept limited registration dogs readily?

I'm not interested in any sort of debate about back yard breeding. I've never bred a dog and have no interest.

I'm not a breeder but I'll take a stab at MY answers and/or opinion.

(a)do limited registration dogs sell for less than full? The ads I have read seem to reflect this.

(b)Do people accept limited registration dogs readily? I would consider limited registration or even no registration, if there was no way I wanted to have even 1 litter. I guess it would depend a little on the amount savings, if any.

(c)Why do breeders actually do it? ? One possible reason, to control/protect the lineage. or, If a litter or dog has what they consider to be an undesirable trait.

PS. whew !! ,,,,,,,,took me until I reached the 2nd paragraph to figure out what you wanted to register.
 
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From my experience, the price of the pup has nothing to do with limited vs full registration. At least the breeders that I have gotten pups from and talked to; this is their answer. They don't release the full registration until a certain age ( that I don't remember... 2 maybe) AND all appropriate health check/clearance/certification have been received. I am sure that in some cases, they charge to release the full registration, and want some control of the breeding. In others, it is to ensure that you are not perpetuating bad genetics.. Hip dysplasia, PRA, DM, EIC... etc.

Do people readily accept? mileage varies. My question is who is and is not doing limited? and why do you/we care? I bet a BYB or some of the less reputable breeders of any breed never ask and probably don't even know what a Limited Registration is. I went through this when I was looking at pups. If you are wanting a hunting companion and they are going to be neutered or spayed.. it makes no difference. If you want to breed, it makes sure, you are being a responsible breeder (under the reasoning I was given and shared above). I was very turned off buy the limited... until I thought about it.
 
I was told buy several breeders. They have visions of what they want in a dog. If I was to buy a pup then titled it. I would then need to get back to them for the breeder to approve who I breed my dog with. I would then get the restriction removed.

That being said I will not buy a limited.

I have always had luck buying field trail lines. This year I called about several breeders and they would not sell me a dog if I did not run field trials or hunting test. They did not care that I would be working the dog hunting. Seems hunting was a bad word. They want to be able to state this breed had x amount of field trail pups.
 
Bill, I think you touched on an important trend that has developed and spread among sporting retriever breeders. IF a breeder can offer significant support for their program's focus on producing sound dogs AND a consistent centered focus on maintaining breed standards, then their rationale for justifying offering limited registration is better grounded and supported. However, far too often, limited registration is used as a marketing ploy, implying that the source dogs from this kennel offer characteristics that are superior and unique among the breed.

An example of a very sound and justifiable breeding program is the kennel that Sutton bought his pointer from. They put great thought and focus into the direction of their breedings as well as what they are trying to maintain and fine tune in the working breed.

Wildrose Kennels has developed the interesting "technique" of suggesting that you bring your dog to their various training functions periodically so the dog can receive structured oversight and guidance in its training progression, as well as progress assessment by their staff. Should the dog prove "noteworthy", then breeding opportunities with other Wildrose progeny would be discussed...an interesting way of guaranteeing additional revenue inflow to the kennel and broadening their gene pool for crosses, as well as broadening breeding opportunities without ever enabling the dog owner to make any independent choices. I always enjoy the carefully worded "offerings" in their newsletters, continually implying that only members of the gentry can appreciate their training approach and their dogs; a continual stream of Berber jackets, Irish tweeds and Wellies! I ran into Mike Stewart at a DU function in Appleton, Wi. I received groundling treatment, until I mentioned we owned one of his dogs. Then we "morphed" to paisano status, until I mentioned that the dog was unsound, moving us quickly to untouchable caste membership-all in the space of at most five minutes of conversation.
 
Rick,

I think you make a lot of interesting observations here, and It's my own observation that the recent trend seems to be establishing a "name brand" and the overall marketing illusion that you are getting a sure-fire, "just add water" candidate if you purchase from the kennel in question. A loyal, calm family member who can be admired at cocktail parties and yet brings home the birds you down in the teeth of a gale! ( Makes me wonder if part of the "fail-safe" for the Berber crowd might be: "Well, if you had signed up for the platinum training option, you'd have had better results.")

The trend seems to have extended to much smaller operations, particularly those who really push the "English/British" designation to set apart their pups as extremely valuable from the get-go. I'd imagine that the "training progression" & "seminar" options (offered with pricing to suit) are also providing another steady income stream from those who have bought in to the whole illusion. My own impression after speaking to the staff at some of these kennels ( the "name" behind the brand never seems to be available ) when I was doing my background work before purchasing Scooter was that they were fairly high volume dealers (one might be tempted to use the words "puppy mill") who were very unresponsive to answering questions; and whose "early puppy enrichment programs" for yet unsold pups were pretty being staffed by local high schoolers who had themselves been "trained" to follow some basics that anyone with some semblance of retriever training knowledge could (and would) be implementing.

Those breeding dogs with plenty of show title background and marginal field credentials seem to be even worse, requesting that you fill out a potential owner questionnaire that might make you feel as if you were adopting a child. Ridiculous!

I can remember when strictly protecting the soundness of their line breeding was the only motivation of highly regarded breeders. The late Talbot Radcliffe of the famous Saighton field Springer Spaniel kennel in the UK comes to mind. A wonderful old Springer pro by the name of Lew Craig who brought stud dogs to the US from the Saighton Kennels swore by his line, and I can remember Lew telling me that Radcliffe never allowed one of his females to be imported to the US although there was no lack of demand (and offers of big money) for him to do so.
 
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Did he offer a reason for his decision to not export dogs from the UK to the USA?

Feel free to correct me if his viewpoint differed, but UK breeders generally approach ALL habits, not just physical/organic traits as having a genetic basis and therefore heritable; differing markedly from sporting dog breeders in the States who view many traits that are not organic/physical characteristics capable of being "trained out"-very different philosophies applied to breeding criteria, as well as goals.

I do sincerely believe that there is something different, beyond conformation, about British/Irish Labradors, but my universe is limited to fox reds who were reintroduced back into the Labrador stock in the States primarily from British and Irish show stock dogs.
 
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RLLigman said:
Did he offer a reason for his decision to not export dogs from the UK to the USA?

[size 4]Rick,

Based on my recollection of what Lew told me, Radcliffe felt (as many European breeders do), that a bitch line built up over generations is key in line breeding. People will always seek out top stud dogs, but often the bitch line is overlooked as a the real key to high quality breeding. He felt that high quality females had more of an effect on phenotype while genotype would always be more hit & miss. By not allowing other breeders have access to his quality line of females, I would assume he wanted to make sure that he kept that control for himself. When I chose the litter that Scooter came out of, the most impressive thing to me (besides all the good stud dogs in it) was how many of Mary Howley's top Candlewood bitches this particular breeding gave access to.
 
Interesting! I cut the section out of my original post regarding dam's prominence in UK kennels breeder's programs, since I used my dogs as a base example, generally, to avoid the thread morphing into a, "My dog Zeus can knit, retrieve birds, and do long division simultaneously!".

To stay with Tod's overall subject focus: If the base factors that determine a pup's overall worth and promise from date-of-purchase forward are driven by who its parents were, and how well those genetics are nurtured and expressed through early socialization and training, then limited breeding registrations damage the breed more than they serve as a check to improve it through time.

Other than a yellow and a chocolate, our nine dogs have been fox reds, four of them from Irish or Irish/British stock. Fox reds became re-established within the yellow lab. community here in the States from imports of bench (show) stock primarily from Britain. Kane and Flynn are from Craighorn Bracken lines, which doesn't translate to much, since his progeny number well over a thousand pus from around 160 plus breedings. He was the first yellow to win the British Championship, in 2001. More noteworthy to me were his previous placings in prior attempts, as well as the consistency of his progeny. Keep in mind, the British structure their field trials in such a way that, should a dog fail to bring back the mark, another dog is called-up to attempt to complete the retrieve. Should the dog be successful, the test points total it is awarded increases.

Craighorn Bracken's pedigree was populated by more show(bench) dogs, generally weaker on the sire side throughout his ancestry, with the dam's lines containing more FTW and FTCH members. This has drawn comment from breeders on both sides of "the pond."Kelleygreen and Keepsake kennels have been the source stock for many fox reds in the U.S. Some folks argue that one of these kennels is a puppy mill. Personally, I think it is ridiculous to contend that the deeply ingrained characteristics of scenting and retrieving for which Labradors as a breed have been associated, can be destroyed by show stock outcrosses.

Does this further confound the whole limited breeding registration? Yes. Also left-out of this discussion is how frequently a bitch should be bred over the course of a year, which directly impacts both litter size and individual health, and also influences genetic expression...

This is a representative argument for limited registration. Note that the focus of their rationale is to discourage back-yard breeders and puppy mills, drivers that Tod does not feel should be included in the discussion.

http://firehouselabs.com/frequently-asked-questions/limited-vs-full-akc-registration
 
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"Don't forget health clearances." I have been breeding Chesapeakes since 1981. The bottom line is if you are a responsible breeder, you should breed to better the breed and not
to pad your pocket. You must do all the testing that is available for health clearances for that breed. This would be my first question to the breeder. Did you do all the health clearances, that is available for this breed and show me the paper work. You also must know what to look for. As a puppy buyer down the road if the health clearances were not done on the Sire and the Dam you could be in for a lot of heartache.

Tom
 
Tod,

Unless things have changed an AKC limited registration keeps you from breeding and running field trials. I would expect to pay less for a limited versus full registration. I realize this may not always be true.

It seems the world of pure bred retrievers has changed a lot in the past 20 years. The price for puppies is pretty astounding today. All you are buying is potential. Titles tell you what the parents/ancestors are/were. Hopefully, those traits will be passed through to their offspring. Ultimately, it is a crap shoot as to what you get.

Tom
 
100% agree with you Tom.

I got lucky with Otter and Kodi. Both came to the table knowing what to do. If you read the book Clan of the Cave Bear. The clan genetically inherited the memories of their ancestors. ( if I remember correctly, lol... kind of punny). It was like they had done it before... just had to dust them off a bit.
 
Thanks guys for the feedback. I've stayed out of it just because I didn't want bias the feedback too much. Very interesting thought and comments.

My last two dogs came with limited registrations and it has always bothered me a little - hence the question since I'm thinking about a new dog (current turns 8 this week). These 2 dogs were very similar in that both were very expensive dogs at the time and they had strong pedigrees. I didn't have a plan to breed so the registration status wasn't a big deal, but it has sort of gotten to me. Both breeders had criteria for converting the limited to full registration (ironically for one the Dam was a JH at the time and his criteria for converting the dog he sold me was to reach SH or MH - can't remember).

I do not think I'll pay top dollar again for a limited registration. I may not be able to do it, but that is what I'm thinking now. I sure see a lot of limited registrations.

I recognize that this is super minor and that breeding and health are way more important, but I'm talking dogs at at a pretty high level for the important stuff.
 
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Tom Wall said:
Tod,

Unless things have changed an AKC limited registration keeps you from breeding and running field trials. I would expect to pay less for a limited versus full registration. I realize this may not always be true.

It seems the world of pure bred retrievers has changed a lot in the past 20 years. The price for puppies is pretty astounding today. All you are buying is potential. Titles tell you what the parents/ancestors are/were. Hopefully, those traits will be passed through to their offspring. Ultimately, it is a crap shoot as to what you get.

Tom

Bench dogs cannot be sold with limited registrations, since one of the show criteria that is judged is conformation to breed standard with the over-riding intent of breeding the dogs in competition over time.
 

Bench dogs cannot be sold with limited registrations, since one of the show criteria that is judged is conformation to breed standard with the over-riding intent of breeding the dogs in competition over time.[/quote]

Rick, a dog shown in the breed ring, must be intact. I do not think there is anything preventing a limited registered dog in the breed ring.
 
Dave Diefenderfer said:
Bench dogs cannot be sold with limited registrations, since one of the show criteria that is judged is conformation to breed standard with the over-riding intent of breeding the dogs in competition over time.

Rick, a dog shown in the breed ring, must be intact. I do not think there is anything preventing a limited registered dog in the breed ring.[/quote]

No, I think he is right. I read it reading the AKC rules.
 
I stand corrected then. I had full registration when I was showing. I showed in the breed ring, obedience trials and hunt tests. Judged a Derby once, but never ran a field trial myself. Judged Jr and Sr at one time too.
 
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