Canoe/Kayak/Ducker packing for river trip

[Kyle Hauck]

I LOVE waterfowl!!! But.......there comes a time between Saskatchewan and South Dakota where I love to chase deer, especially with my dad while we can still do it. I mostly chase whitetail, although I haven't shot a mule deer in over 15 years and I might try to stick one with my bow this year but that's a story for another time. I grew up chasing deer with my dad, he was never into waterfowl and any type of birds. My dad and myself have been privileged enough over the last 5-8 years to hunt on his brother 115 acres of property. We've been able to harvest some really nice whitetail including this beautiful 4x4 last year that is the last deer harvested on the property as he is selling for a larger place in Wyoming. This being the case, I am planning for my Dad and I for a public land deer hunt this coming fall and I've stumbled upon a very nice piece of public property that is easiest accessed by kayak/canoe/ducker perhaps. The river will not flow enough for an actual boat. I am very, very excited as hunting growing up was a daily activity and we are looking at this as doing a multiple day, overnight, deer camp style event.

The logistics is why I am here, as you all seem to have quite the knack for boats and me growing up in the Midwest is not my fortitude, haha.

The proposed camp is 8.5 miles downstream with the pickup point at the end of the trip being another 14 miles downstream after that. We will be looking at light camping for 3-5 days eating prepackaged breakfast burritos, potatoes, ramen, etc. and hopefully deer steak. The trip is going to be for 4 gentlemen all with their own vessels.

I am looking at purchasing this. https://www.cabelas.com/...wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds It has a 450lb capacity which should be more than enough for probably my dad to navigate with.

At this point I plan on using my ducker for the trip.

1. Will it be worthy of an trip of that length?
2. Is the capacity of 300lbs super strict?
3. What if it is at that or a little over? I don't want to stress crack the boat or anything like that.

Any tips/tricks/etc from experienced canoe/kayak packers would be appreciated. Thanks!



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[Troy Fields]

Sounds like an exciting trip Kyle. I've done a fair amount of over-night excursions on the water, all with a canoes though. Dollar for dollar and just my opinion, if this is close by you, https://siouxcity.craigslist.org/boa/d/omaha-16ft-old-town-canoe/6847124451.html that would be my first choice, even if I were going alone, I would prefer this over my Poke Boats and my Ducker as well. Coolers fit very well in Old Town canoes and they paddle well loaded too. Look forward to seeing see pictures of your trip.

Troy

 

[Kyle Hauck]

Sounds like an exciting trip Kyle. I've done a fair amount of over-night excursions on the water, all with a canoes though. Dollar for dollar and just my opinion, if this is close by you, https://siouxcity.craigslist.org/...anoe/6847124451.html that would be my first choice, even if I were going alone, I would prefer this over my Poke Boats and my Ducker as well. Coolers fit very well in Old Town canoes and they paddle well loaded too. Look forward to seeing see pictures of your trip.

Troy

Troy, that is about a 5 hr drive from me, but I have read really good things about old town canoes! I should mention that I work in the bow shop at Cabelas and will be able to pick up the Ascend one I mentioned for about $350 with my discount.

 

[RLLigman]

So, twenty miles on moving water in fall temperatures in the Dakotas with someone who has had how much time in a kayak or canoe, paddling with a load? You make no mention of dry packs for your gear. They will be necessary whether you paddle any of the vessels mentioned. The kayak you listed has no capacity to mount any type of spray skirt, so the water coming off the kayak paddle will fall in an open boat and accumulate. To keep control of the canoe or kayak for precise maneuvering, you will have to be moving faster than the ambient current rate, with a significant load on board, possibly dodging ice flows and dead heads, its doable, but requires both some skill and a fair amount of conditioning. Can you break your carcasses down in the field out there? I have a fifteen foot Grumman white water, and have used it for game transport on multiple occasions, as well as canoe camping since purchase when I was in my late teens; even slept in it one night, which I would not recommend. I cut the legs on a deer off at the joint and get it under the thwarts as low as possible to transport whole. We have no specific law requiring you to transport deer in the field intact, but the three occasions where I have bucked-up a deer in the woods to bring out to my vehicle have caused quite a "stir" among my deer hunting friends, who maintain that the tagged rack must remain attached to the meat and carcass during transport...never had a CO check me on each occasion.

I have only been in an Alumacraft Ducker to fly fish for carp on a marshy inland lake. I would not want to try and maneuver one loaded in fast water for any distance.

 

[Dani]

Kyle,

I don't have experience with that boat or the ducker. I have limited camping experience using canoes. But something you'd want to consider is if 4 guys are going, each one has their own watercraft of some kind, what kind of gear are you taking? Is everyone bringing their own tent? Cooking gear? Coolers? Will one person/boat be the workhorse? Or multiple people are the workhorses? You should take a look at how much storage the boat you are looking at getting has and what of your gear will fit in any hatches/storage compartments. If it were me on a trip like that, I'd prefer a canoe over the boat you're considering buying. Partly because a canoe is more comfortable to sit in for long lengths of time for me.

For $350 you could probably find a good used canoe near you.

 

[Kyle Hauck]

So, twenty miles on moving water in fall temperatures in the Dakotas with someone who has had how much time in a kayak or canoe, paddling with a load? You make no mention of dry packs for your gear. They will be necessary whether you paddle any of the vessels mentioned. The kayak you listed has no capacity to mount any type of spray skirt, so the water coming off the kayak paddle will fall in an open boat and accumulate. To keep control of the canoe or kayak for precise maneuvering, you will have to be moving faster than the ambient current rate, with a significant load on board, possibly dodging ice flows and dead heads, its doable, but requires both some skill and a fair amount of conditioning. Can you break your carcasses down in the field out there? I have a fifteen foot Grumman white water, and have used it for game transport on multiple occasions, as well as canoe camping since purchase when I was in my late teens; even slept in it one night, which I would not recommend. I cut the legs on a deer off at the joint and get it under the thwarts as low as possible to transport whole. We have no specific law requiring you to transport deer in the field intact, but the three occasions where I have bucked-up a deer in the woods to bring out to my vehicle have caused quite a "stir" among my deer hunting friends, who maintain that the tagged rack must remain attached to the meat and carcass during transport...never had a CO check me on each occasion.

I have only been in an Alumacraft Ducker to fly fish for carp on a marshy inland lake. I would not want to try and maneuver one loaded in fast water for any distance.

This great insight! Thank you for that! In November there should not be any iceflows, but it is possible. I do have dry pack for all of my personal gear from fighting fire so that is taken care of. As far as the deer are concerned we are definitely able to break them down in the field! It is certainly allowed! We tag the legs so one leg will have the tag, and if a trophy is attained the cape and rack with come with.

I do appreciate your experience when considering the flow of rivers as it will be fairly new to me. I want to plan as least one scouting trip after spring water levels subside to normal flow rates sometime in May/June. This stock photo is a good picture of what most of the river looks like. Winding, old sand/gravel bed river, with a lower CFS flow rate, lots of sandbars that will need to be navigated and perhaps drug past at points. That is what the scouting trip is for.

 

[Kyle Hauck]

Kyle,

I don't have experience with that boat or the ducker. I have limited camping experience using canoes. But something you'd want to consider is if 4 guys are going, each one has their own watercraft of some kind, what kind of gear are you taking? Is everyone bringing their own tent? Cooking gear? Coolers? Will one person/boat be the workhorse? Or multiple people are the workhorses? You should take a look at how much storage the boat you are looking at getting has and what of your gear will fit in any hatches/storage compartments. If it were me on a trip like that, I'd prefer a canoe over the boat you're considering buying. Partly because a canoe is more comfortable to sit in for long lengths of time for me.

For $350 you could probably find a good used canoe near you.

Dani,

All great considerations! At this point in the planning we are still deciding on one tent versus multiple. I have a very small backpacking tent good for my father and I that weighs less than 3 lbs. I also plan on doing as much cooking with the Jetboil as possible, prepacking breakfast burritos, jerky, etc. We are still researching on restrictions of the public land. Dispersed camping is 100% ok but we are still trying to find out about fires. They should be fine but we want to be sure. Having fire as an option will cut cooking equipment down a lot! I assume there will be at least one cooler for goods that could spoil. I would like to think that the load will be separated evenly but of everyone I am and will always be in the best shape so I will always be the fall guy for biggest load. The comfort-ability thing I guess i'd have to see. The ones i'm looking at looks super comfortable but I know canoes are good too. Things I've researched online say that 8 miles downstream can be covered in 2-3 hours. I figure anything less than 4 would be great but again i'll have to figure it out on my one or multiple scouting trips.

 

[Mark W]

I've owned and hunted out of a Ducker. Compared to the current kayak type of boats I own (Poke Boat and a Hoefgen), I would not want to paddle the ducker down that kind of river for that distance. It doesn't paddle well compared to other options. It is very wide and cumbersome to paddle. With the gunnels about 6"'s wide, it is hard to sit in the bottom of the Ducker and get a paddle into the water to move the boat. You need a very long paddle.

As far as load, I bet you could put more in it. I weigh 215 and then add my gear (clothes, decoys, guns, ammo, mini mud motor etc....) I bet I was close to 300 lbs and felt the boat could hold more.

Stability of the ducker can't be beat - you won't fall overboard in it for sure.

As far as getting wet while paddling - sometimes some water would get in the boat. I was always wearing waders and waterproof hunting gear so no issue there. I put those little collars on the paddle shaft up near the blades and they helped quite a bit.

Looks like beautiful spot. Western end of the State by chance?

Mark

 

[Kyle Hauck]

I've owned and hunted out of a Ducker. Compared to the current kayak type of boats I own (Poke Boat and a Hoefgen), I would not want to paddle the ducker down that kind of river for that distance. It doesn't paddle well compared to other options. It is very wide and cumbersome to paddle. With the gunnels about 6"'s wide, it is hard to sit in the bottom of the Ducker and get a paddle into the water to move the boat. You need a very long paddle.

As far as load, I bet you could put more in it. I weigh 215 and then add my gear (clothes, decoys, guns, ammo, mini mud motor etc....) I bet I was close to 300 lbs and felt the boat could hold more.

Stability of the ducker can't be beat - you won't fall overboard in it for sure.

As far as getting wet while paddling - sometimes some water would get in the boat. I was always wearing waders and waterproof hunting gear so no issue there. I put those little collars on the paddle shaft up near the blades and they helped quite a bit.

Looks like beautiful spot. Western end of the State by chance?

Mark

Mark, Thank for the insight for weight! I also needed to consider that for duck hunting with myself being about 190 and a 70lb lab plus gear. I hate waders, with a passion!! Give me dry fields! That being said I am excited to hunt out of my ducker for a little bit this coming fall!

Western side yes for sure!

 

[Troy Fields]

I would not hesitate one minute to canoe that watershed (in any season) with an Old Town. They are nimble enough to navigate those elbows (loaded) and durable enough to handle any gravel area.

 

[Dani]

If you think you will be the fall guy for biggest load, then I'd think you would want to consider what that biggest load could possibly be and determine whether the boat/s your are considering can handle that kind of load. That would be the worst case scenario I guess.

When I was talking about tents, coolers, cooking stuff I actually wasn't thinking as much about the weight, though that is certainly something that is very important. I was thinking about the sizes of all of those things. Those apparent hatches are odd shaped and don't look big. So how much stuff could fit inside the hatches vs how much stuff will you have to strap to the top of the boat? How will stuff strapped to the top affect your stability in the boat? Coming from someone who has frequently flipped kayaks and fallen out of jon boats, stability is mighty important to me. But down here if I flip a boat, usually it isn't so cold that hypothermia is an issue.

Out of curiosity, what are the other boats that the other people will be taking do you know?

The one thing that I have seen consistently on one of the kayak fishing websites I used to frequent is that whenever anyone new got a kayak and asked about the best way to set it up for fishing, the single most common recommendation was to spend good money on a good seat. Don't cheap out on it. That it would make all the difference in the world in paddle fatigue and how long you could handle sitting down like that. I don't know how it is up where you live but here in FL there are a number of places to buy kayaks (go figure right?) and you can "test drive" them and test drive a variety of different kinds of seats. Maybe there is a place you could do something like that?

One other thing to consider....if the cabelas boat is for your dad...is he limber/spry enough to stay sitting down in that position for that long?

 

[Kyle Hauck]

Dani,

Haha, yeah I was on the opposite thinking only about weight. Size is a consideration especially when we think about packout with 4 deer being possible. As far as cooking/camping/hunting gear I've done extensive backpacking and with my firefighting I can live on minimal survival and cooking gear. My father can do it as well, and the two friends I've invited I know one for sure I trust. He still needs to purchase his own canoe but he will be moving to Billings, MT from Illinois in June and will start looking at a watercraft after that. My other friend who is local could use some physical conditioning and I would guess is the heaviest of the bunch. He did "OK" when I hiked him on a mule deer hunt this last fall. He is hunting opening day turkey with me this weekend so we'll see. He however has the most paddle experience and own a smaller 12' canoe which he used to navigate the backwoods where he grew up in Arkansas.

If you think you will be the fall guy for biggest load, then I'd think you would want to consider what that biggest load could possibly be and determine whether the boat/s your are considering can handle that kind of load. That would be the worst case scenario I guess.

When I was talking about tents, coolers, cooking stuff I actually wasn't thinking as much about the weight, though that is certainly something that is very important. I was thinking about the sizes of all of those things. Those apparent hatches are odd shaped and don't look big. So how much stuff could fit inside the hatches vs how much stuff will you have to strap to the top of the boat? How will stuff strapped to the top affect your stability in the boat? Coming from someone who has frequently flipped kayaks and fallen out of jon boats, stability is mighty important to me. But down here if I flip a boat, usually it isn't so cold that hypothermia is an issue.

Out of curiosity, what are the other boats that the other people will be taking do you know?

On trying out canoes, I'm not 100 percent certain there is a place like that around here but it is possible. I'll have to do some research on some of the local mountain sport shops.

The one thing that I have seen consistently on one of the kayak fishing websites I used to frequent is that whenever anyone new got a kayak and asked about the best way to set it up for fishing, the single most common recommendation was to spend good money on a good seat. Don't cheap out on it. That it would make all the difference in the world in paddle fatigue and how long you could handle sitting down like that. I don't know how it is up where you live but here in FL there are a number of places to buy kayaks (go figure right?) and you can "test drive" them and test drive a variety of different kinds of seats. Maybe there is a place you could do something like that?

My dad is 62 and although slowing down definitely limber enough to be sitting down for that long. He frequently drives 8+ hours for work to ND/CO/WY/MT for heavy duty electrical installations.

One other thing to consider....if the cabelas boat is for your dad...is he limber/spry enough to stay sitting down in that position for that long?

 

[Kyle Hauck]

To everyone who has responded so far thank you very much! I really appreciate all the outsiders information and insight and will greatly help my planning as it progresses throughout the summer.

Here is some interesting info to consider as well for all who chipped in so far. These are USGS Stream Gauge recording. The Buffalo Gap one is upstream from my dropoff point and is showing as of last year in Nov 15-Dec 15 an average gauge depth of around 3 ft with water flow at approximately 120cfs. The Red Shirt one is at the pickup point post hunt and shows an average gauge depth of around 10.6 ft with water flow at approximately 150cfs. These make sense on CFS and gauge depth and between the dropoff and pickup point there are several smaller creeks that are both springfed and seasonal runoff that dump into the watershed. The Cheyenne River bottoms are really amazing going from 100CFS to 15000CFS overnight with significant rains and runoff so camp will need to be placed accordingly in case of freak flashflooding. You also might notice that at the end of November for both sites shore ice started to affect gauge measurements.



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[Kevin B]

I agree with Troy, Kyle. Hard to beat canoe for hauling gear and weight. I would even consider going to 2 two canoe's instead of 4 boats. Check your regs and see if you can bone them and just save the head to identify sex. Deer take up a lot of room in boat. Sounds like a great time

 

[RLLigman]

Learn the basic canoe strokes, particularly a J stroke, if you have no experience paddling this type of hull.

You're all going to need some practice time packing your canoe to paddle from the stern seat solo. I prefer to paddle off my knees on a padded foam sheet with my butt against the front edge of the seat; you get a lower center of gravity and better feel for the movement of the hull and you can damp side-to-side rocking just using knee pressure on the hull via the large muscles of your thighs. The downside is that you can barely walk when you first stand-up after leaving the boat, but it is easier on your back. Dani is right, most seats are now really comfortable or good for all-day paddling. Normally, when I have the dog with me jumpshooting, I reverse my Grumman and push a life vest behind my hips/butt against the center thwart and put the dog behind me on closed cell pad and tell it "down". I would not cut the craft number down to two canoes, particularly if two or three of you get deer. A 170lb. deer boned is still going to yield nearly fifty to sixty pounds of meat, depending on what you have to toss due to shot damage. Three deer adds nearly 180lb. to your load, yeah you ate most of the food, but, outside of ditching gear you will likely want all the cargo capacity you can muster. You can calculate your rate of travel off those fall flow rate values...you may want to make the leg to the downstream pullout a 2 day paddle.

Freeze dried meal combos are waterproof packed...and light. Tablets and or a filter for giardia will give you ready access to water to reconstitute them.

The one thing I don't care for with rotomolded canoes is their lack of a keel; they just don't answer very quickly, needing several strokes to course correct. Avoid Coleman canoes like the plague-worthless as a watercraft. My physician has a solo expedition boat. Four of them have paddled them through Alaska and northern Canada on several trips. We jump shoot together hopscotching each other on some rivers up here. While the boat doesn't look like much, but it handles well. It also has a skirt to keep water ingress minimal.

Also, it gets harder to read the water ahead as you lose the light, and you are going to be paddling late in the year when daylight is at a premium. Even with headlamps on, snags and deadheads, as well as gravel bars are hard to pick-up. And, as I said earlier, with a loaded boat you will need some reaction distance to navigate.

 

[noweil Mike]

Kyle,
For Hauling the loads you are talking, canoes are the way to go. It is hard to beat the load hauling capacity of a canoe. Kayaks just will not haul that much gear or weight. I would say you and the guys going with you need to spend some time getting familiar with canoes before deer season. There can be big differences in canoes as far as stability. Not all hulls are created equal. A little river like that should be a fun paddle. I often use a long kayak paddle with big flat blades on it if I solo paddle my canoes. Osage Canoes used to sell them. I will have to look but I think they are 9' long made by Carlilse. Having the double bladed paddle makes it very simple paddling the canoe.

 

[zane Every]

I'm late to the conversation, but if I had to paddle with gear, cooler and a Lab, I would want to do it in a canoe 14' or 15'. Its what they a made to do. I do not own a Ducker, but based on the design I would not want to paddle it down a meandering stream like that for any amount a distance.

And if you see a kid playing the banjo.....High tail it out of there [smile]

 

[Buddy]

Not sure what the river is like but for over night trips here in Oregon we run rafts or cats. You might consider this option depending on flow.

I wouldn't skimp on the tent. Finding another way to dry things out is not easy.

Sounds like a fun hunt! Good luck.

 

[Bob Collier]

I would agree with the canoe as your watercraft of choice!
I have spent a week or more canoeing in the BWCA here in Mn for the last thirty years. The old town is a great choice for the water you are looking at, it can carry a Cheryl good load, tracks well, easy to pull or portage thru skinny water. It is very durable and can take a ton of abuse.
I am happy to give you some suggestions for gear if you want. PM me if you want to talk further.
Have a great time planning your adventure, for me that is half the fun.
Bob

 

[tod osier]

Not sure what the river is like but for over night trips here in Oregon we run rafts or cats. You might consider this option depending on flow.

I wouldn't skimp on the tent. Finding another way to dry things out is not easy.

Sounds like a fun hunt! Good luck.

That was my thought, but if the river is on the smaller side that makes a raft tougher. Knowing the water woudl obviously help, but somethign like a soar pro pioneer would fit the bill better for me with a camp for a week and the potential cold temps and water.