Why do we miss the chinook fishery on the Great Lakes-NDR

Here is Matt Kornis' stable isotope food habits analysis presentation from the 2016 Great Lakes Fishery Comm. Lakes Committee meeting for Lake Michigan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9R--Zl7Xx0&feature=youtu.be


I would encourage you to view the entire video, however, the point where he makes the distinction between diet shifts for adult and juvenile lake trout alewife consumption size-fraction preference is at 6:40 on the timeline, so I would encourage you to listen carefully from 6 minutes in, onward. He is a good presenter so the data will sail along quickly via his overview...

He also covers dietary niche overlap data that is quite interesting.

As I stated previously, lake trout eclipsed Chinook salmon numbers in 2007-2009 shifting the alewife stock from on composed of a minimum of 8 spawning age year-classes downward via foraging preference. Yet, the official perspective is that Chinook salmon forage pressure pushing the stock toward collapse....
 
Watched the whole presentation. What is most striking to me about the study is that of the major predator and prey fish in the study, 4 of the 5 predators and 3 of the 6 forage fish are non-native. And it's worse than that, as the non-native forage fish make up more than 90% of the diet of the three species of Pacific salmonids; more than 85% of the diet of the brown trout, and more than 60% of the diet of lake trout.

My perspective--as a guy who by inclination and profession is mostly concerned with restoring native fish--would be, as I said several posts ago, to slit my wrists. I have enormous respect for anyone with the persistence to try to restore lake trout in that system, but I wouldn't want the job. It's kind of amazing they've had any success at all. It makes dealing with non-native lake trout impacts on Yellowstone cutts or non-native pike and muskellunge impacts on native brook trout here in Maine look like jobs for slackers.
 
tod osier said:
This post needs pics of Kings from back in the day. I'm thinking: mullets (hair style - not fish), healthy tans, cut off jeans and luhr Jensen tackle!

Tod,

Should I digitize some old pictures of me and some Lake Michigan salmon I will oblige. Although, I never did have a mullet or wear cut-offs. I did have a tan and some Luhr Jensen tackle. I caught more fish on Rapala's and Little Cleo spoons.

We did most of our fishing early spring starting in Michigan City, IN, following up the IL coast. By the time the salmon made it to WI waters there were moving too far off shore for our small car top boat. We had a 12' wooden boat and old 5.5 Johnson outboard. We always referred to the boat as a Wisconsin Guide Boat. Unfortunately, it has now rotted back to the earth. That boat was small enough would could launch from the beach, bypassing lines at the launch ramps

The salmon were pretty small in the early spring, 3-7 lbs. But, in that small boat they would be jumping over our heads. It was a lot of fun!

Tom
 
Jeff Reardon said:
Watched the whole presentation. What is most striking to me about the study is that of the major predator and prey fish in the study, 4 of the 5 predators and 3 of the 6 forage fish are non-native. And it's worse than that, as the non-native forage fish make up more than 90% of the diet of the three species of Pacific salmonids; more than 85% of the diet of the brown trout, and more than 60% of the diet of lake trout.

My perspective--as a guy who by inclination and profession is mostly concerned with restoring native fish--would be, as I said several posts ago, to slit my wrists. I have enormous respect for anyone with the persistence to try to restore lake trout in that system, but I wouldn't want the job. It's kind of amazing they've had any success at all. It makes dealing with non-native lake trout impacts on Yellowstone cutts or non-native pike and muskellunge impacts on native brook trout here in Maine look like jobs for slackers.


It's good that you support their efforts, your tax dollars have helped underwrite it for over fifty years.

Metaphorically, Isn't that what stenotopes do when faced with major change; slit their wrists?

As I've documented, the "success" achieved that you laud has resulted in the crash of the food web, via the plants of the endemic-in-name-only lake trout you hold as sacrosanct. That food web riddled with invasives had actually remained functional for the same interval as the lake trout plants have existed in the lower Great Lakes, all trending in the same direction.

It's a good thing that TU attracts so many well-healed "sports" as members; if PT Barnum were still alive he would be clamouring for your membership lists.
 

Mr. Ligman:

If you want to give up on lake trout recovery to improve the chinook fishery, go for it. (Good luck given the state of forage as depicted in the presentation you shared. I disagree with you that lake trout are primarily responsible for this.)

As of last night, I was feeling good about the fact that this had been a discussion and not a name calling contest. I know I'm a cranky and opinionated guy, but I try really hard to disagree without being disagreeable.

Then I saw this post, which sent me looking for my thesaurus to find some obscure insult that can top "stenotope".

Probably better I leave that to you.

Enjoy your spring fishing.
 
RLLigman said:
Jeff Reardon said:
Watched the whole presentation. What is most striking to me about the study is that of the major predator and prey fish in the study, 4 of the 5 predators and 3 of the 6 forage fish are non-native. And it's worse than that, as the non-native forage fish make up more than 90% of the diet of the three species of Pacific salmonids; more than 85% of the diet of the brown trout, and more than 60% of the diet of lake trout.

My perspective--as a guy who by inclination and profession is mostly concerned with restoring native fish--would be, as I said several posts ago, to slit my wrists. I have enormous respect for anyone with the persistence to try to restore lake trout in that system, but I wouldn't want the job. It's kind of amazing they've had any success at all. It makes dealing with non-native lake trout impacts on Yellowstone cutts or non-native pike and muskellunge impacts on native brook trout here in Maine look like jobs for slackers.


It's good that you support their efforts, your tax dollars have helped underwrite it for over fifty years.

Metaphorically, Isn't that what stenotopes do when faced with major change; slit their wrists?

As I've documented, the "success" achieved that you laud has resulted in the crash of the food web, via the plants of the endemic-in-name-only lake trout you hold as sacrosanct. That food web riddled with invasives had actually remained functional for the same interval as the lake trout plants have existed in the lower Great Lakes, all trending in the same direction.

It's a good thing that TU attracts so many well-healed "sports" as members; if PT Barnum were still alive he would be clamouring for your membership lists.

When I saw this thread originally, the first thing that came to mind is a favorite Ray Troll print of mine about Chinook. Too bad there isn't enough Chinookie in your part of Michigan.

7pgCwOW.jpg


In thinking about such systems I come down on the side of the natives every time. In my eye the pacific salmon in the great lakes are little more than a fun to catch alewife, goby, mussel or carp.
 
Well, Jeff, you just failed fish population dynamics 101 via your conclusions, since they are the only species that preferentially feed on the adult stock component that also is among the numerically dominant salmonines in the system; add-in the decline in the adult age-class array began to progress in the immediate interval after they achieved their status as most abundant salmonine.

I guess you don't feel you sound ridiculous in threads where you belittle keeping and eating pike(three times now counting the two outbursts in Dave McCann's thread now per my reading), particularly to a guy who had no role in illegally introducing them into lakes in your state, or your announcement that smelt are the cause of all ills for native trout stocks in Maine lakes- particularly in the Climate Change interval era. Then you state your pronouncement summary of the Kornis presentation, where you craft a response entirely on the premise that non-endemics are so distasteful that their existence and actions cannot be even considered valid, so lets talk only about the native stock components actions! Jeff your comments drip with derision and personnel and professional bias, plus you arrogantly assumed that I posted the video specifically for you to dissect. Other people are reading the thread! Yes, I made fun of the USFWS folks, particularly those I have had multiple interactions with that, like you are so hide-bound to a specific paradigm, that all else is invisible...even the rights of sovereign States to manage their resources as they deem to maximize financial benefits to their populace.

You have underscored clearly why TU is composed of the folks who underwrite your bias and secondarily finance it. As I stated, Stenotopic species do no do well in a markedly wandering environment populated with routine perturbations and extremes in oscillation. This is the essence of the what the Climate Change Model predicts for the near future. Who survives consistently in the punctuated evolution model over time...Stenotopes or Eurytopes? Your position is that of a stenotopic species...
I realized, way back in 1985 that, without a functional food web, the lake trout restoration program was doomed to fail in the lower Great Lakes. After listening to Shawn Sitar's talk last week on Lake Superior's current state, that conclusion is now fully underscored

Todd, thank you for your pronouncements, on the value of my perspective. The words vary, but the overall thesis is still the same as your initial post in a thread I authored years ago where you made fun of my degree and lack of professional publications as the core of your response. Well, you remain consistent. What is that old adage about doers and teachers? You might want to write a check to the website to ensure no repercussions come your way via the moderators for wading into a discussion to simply insult a forum member. Yeah, I know the leopard doesn't change his spots; like your diatribe against Pat Gregory for posting his decoys on here a year or so back. Say, is that why Pat stop posting? We all live in barely breathing suspense and anticipation, waiting for your next, "Hey look at me" post, or a subtle dig at someone, usually me for some perceived offense. In essence this is all you have done via your "Contributions" here.

Yes, I got your perspective on endemics...waaaaaaaaaaay back in the Golden Trout.look at me thread you posted some time ago.

Oh, the Civil War enactors called: they want their beard back! Yes, I understood what you were inferring in the previous post; why I chose the picture array I opted to use.

I have to admit, the principal reason we have never gotten along is that, in deed, mannerism and even appearance you are a near duplicate of my former major professor from Grad. school at MSU. He too, was tenured, which enabled him to remain employed after I turned him in on conflict of interest charges. I initially met with the Assistant Provost of Academic Affairs at MSU, leaving the hour long discussion convinced I would receive no support from her. That perception proved true. Charlie was eventually found guilty, along with one other professor who resigned prior the close of the investigation. He was censured by his peers in the College of Agriculture and Natural Resources. He left MSU and took a position working for the BLM at a pumped storage plant out west. The Assist Provost? You might recognize her: Louann K. Simon. Yes, the MSU President who was forced to resign in the wake of the Larry Nassar scandal...all the chickens do come home to roost!

I just got tired of having my work and research stolen and published under his name.

As a Wisconsin native, I would caution you in what you wish for, since the imminent collapse of the sport fishery via the decline of Chinook salmon will cut quite hard into the economy of your native state as well. My BW Conquest is gone, sold out to a guy who fishes it for his one salmon a day off San Juan Island. I sold my Outrage too, and all my Great Lakes tackle for offshore fishing. I still catch salmon and trout out of the TDB, which is fine.
 
RLLigman said:
Well, Jeff, you just failed fish population dynamics 101 via your conclusions, since they are the only species that preferentially feed on the adult stock component that also is among the numerically dominant salmonines in the system; add-in the decline in the adult age-class array began to progress in the immediate interval after they achieved their status as most abundant salmonine.

I guess you don't feel you sound ridiculous in threads where you belittle keeping and eating pike(three times now counting the two outbursts in Dave McCann's thread now per my reading), particularly to a guy who had no role in illegally introducing them into lakes in your state, or your announcement that smelt are the cause of all ills for native trout stocks in Maine lakes- particularly in the Climate Change interval era. Then you state your pronouncement summary of the Kornis presentation, where you craft a response entirely on the premise that non-endemics are so distasteful that their existence and actions cannot be even considered valid, so lets talk only about the native stock components actions! Jeff your comments drip with derision and personnel and professional bias, plus you arrogantly assumed that I posted the video specifically for you to dissect. Other people are reading the thread! Yes, I made fun of the USFWS folks, particularly those I have had multiple interactions with that, like you are so hide-bound to a specific paradigm, that all else is invisible...even the rights of sovereign States to manage their resources as they deem to maximize financial benefits to their populace.

You have underscored clearly why TU is composed of the folks who underwrite your bias and secondarily finance it. As I stated, Stenotopic species do no do well in a markedly wandering environment populated with routine perturbations and extremes in oscillation. This is the essence of the what the Climate Change Model predicts for the near future. Who survives consistently in the punctuated evolution model over time...Stenotopes or Eurytopes? Your position is that of a stenotopic species...
I realized, way back in 1985 that, without a functional food web, the lake trout restoration program was doomed to fail in the lower Great Lakes. After listening to Shawn Sitar's talk last week on Lake Superior's current state, that conclusion is now fully underscored

Todd, thank you for your pronouncements, on the value of my perspective. The words vary, but the overall thesis is still the same as your initial post in a thread I authored years ago where you made fun of my degree and lack of professional publications as the core of your response. Well, you remain consistent. What is that old adage about doers and teachers? You might want to write a check to the website to ensure no repercussions come your way via the moderators for wading into a discussion to simply insult a forum member. Yeah, I know the leopard doesn't change his spots; like your diatribe against Pat Gregory for posting his decoys on here a year or so back. Say, is that why Pat stop posting? We all live in barely breathing suspense and anticipation, waiting for your next, "Hey look at me" post, or a subtle dig at someone, usually me for some perceived offense. In essence this is all you have done via your "Contributions" here.

Yes, I got your perspective on endemics...waaaaaaaaaaay back in the Golden Trout.look at me thread you posted some time ago.

Oh, the Civil War enactors called: they want their beard back! Yes, I understood what you were inferring in the previous post; why I chose the picture array I opted to use.

I have to admit, the principal reason we have never gotten along is that, in deed, mannerism and even appearance you are a near duplicate of my former major professor from Grad. school at MSU. He too, was tenured, which enabled him to remain employed after I turned him in on conflict of interest charges. I initially met with the Assistant Provost of Academic Affairs at MSU, leaving the hour long discussion convinced I would receive no support from her. That perception proved true. Charlie was eventually found guilty, along with one other professor who resigned prior the close of the investigation. He was censured by his peers in the College of Agriculture and Natural Resources. He left MSU and took a position working for the BLM at a pumped storage plant out west. The Assist Provost? You might recognize her: Louann K. Simon. Yes, the MSU President who was forced to resign in the wake of the Larry Nassar scandal...all the chickens do come home to roost!

I just got tired of having my work and research stolen and published under his name.

As a Wisconsin native, I would caution you in what you wish for, since the imminent collapse of the sport fishery via the decline of Chinook salmon will cut quite hard into the economy of your native state as well. My BW Conquest is gone, sold out to a guy who fishes it for his one salmon a day off San Juan Island. I sold my Outrage too, and all my Great Lakes tackle for offshore fishing. I still catch salmon and trout out of the TDB, which is fine.

Have a one Rick...
 
Oops... meant to type ? have a good one ?, I am not much of a doer, I guess. Darm it.
 
Honestly I didn't read this long discussion as its too similar of an issue we deal with here in Oregon on several fisheries. Some of these posts seem to go off on a one sided tangent without seeing the larger picture and not addressing the audience properly due to the fact this is duck forum.

From my learning based in Oregon and fishing with people who actually do the studies there is a lot more to restoring or adding to these fisheries than most can comprehend. They are very fragile systems and recovery programs are very difficult to see results. Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. The people who usually work on these are typically gathering data from other studies not just in your area! However, each system is unique and not so straight forward.

Here in Oregon we have to include other species and balance our system. Its frustrating to hear that the seal lions that migrated here have more rights than our native fish.

Good luck to your fishery and hopefully you can see the results in your lifetime! Great lakes is not the only place this has happened too.


Also, Learn to tame down your discussions if your trying to convey a point. You might have a valid point and know how to help your fishery but you will not win any support.


Anyone else getting duck hunting gear ready? We had a very wet winter and it appears I will be hunting some areas that haven't had a water in the last ten years!! I am way to excited!

 
Last edited:
tod osier said:
Oops... meant to type ? have a good one ?, I am not much of a doer, I guess. Darm it.

Oh, shucks dang...Freudian slip?

Well, as Ron White far better stated, "You had the right to remain silent, but not the ability." Yes, you owe Pat Gregory an apology.

You get a fresh crop of "twenty-somethings" each year to direct to think in the same narrow corridor, the same way you do...how exciting.

I promise, when I want to get a much better understanding of quaking aspen, I will contact you specifically for that update.

I fish because fish are "fun to catch", and I like to eat most of the species I fish for. Members of the char family are very easy to catch, as well as fish-out, why I seldom fish for brook trout. If, like a steelhead, I don't care for them as table fare, I don't keep them. Well, except for the three steelhead I lost in the last four days while netting them...
 
Last edited:
Fishing in the last handful of days on Superior has been really good: coho 3-6lbs. steelhead averaging seven pounds, Chinook in the 7 to 9lb range. So, I opted to take some time to actually fish. Small craft advisories are posted from midnight to midnight now.

Buddy, thanks for the advice. I liked your canoe comments, they fully invoked your recommendations to me...particularly the tone part. I'm confused why people become dead by simple choosing a specific manufacturer though.

In the ten years I worked as a fishery research biologist with MSU and then with the USFWS, and very briefly with the MDNR Fisheries Research Station, I frequently was told how to manage fishery resources by plumbers, electricians, accountants, doctors, fireman, lawyers, business owners...a lot of business owners, whose sole expertise in fishery science and limnology was holding a valid fishing license. I can wire a simple circuit, but I am not a professional electrician. I have worked and poured cement, and built brick walls, yet, I am not a mason. IF lay people want to guide fishery management, perhaps they should work to understand its principals better, as well as the semantics.

So, now let's fast forward to current 2018 data from the Great Lakes Fishery Commission Lake Committee meetings held in late March.

Jim Dexter appointed Todd Kalish to replace Jay Wesley as Lake Michigan Committee Michigan member, following all the Hullabaloo from the 2012 Decision Analysis Model's findings and recommendations abandonment. Odd, since he was the one who told Jay how to vote and steer the discussion . Todd Kalish vacated the position within six months, despite "being cut from the same cloth", per Jim's statements when he promoted him. Todd became the Assistant Director of Fisheries at the Wisconsin DNR.

I was involved in discussions with a tackle manufacturer and charter fleet owner (five boats that operate out of the southeastern shore ports on Lake Michigan) as he formed a non-profit to support the sport fishery. I opted to agree to disagree on a board seat, since he was adamant that political pressure and simply increasing salmon plants were the best approach to the fishery. The Great Lakes Salmon Initiative formed from these conversations. They are well meaning, but misinformed. They did achieve one thing: bring concerted focus to bear on why the Feds have functioned to engage and fund sea lamprey population control on the Great Lakes and a hatchery system and planting program that has run for nearly 55 years without reaching its goal of lake trout restoration in the lower Great Lakes. Yet, never attempted to cease or impede invasive species introductions via saltwater freighter ballast water dumping within the St. Lawrence Seaway channels of the Great Lakes.

So, here is where we are at:

In 2013, Chinook plants in Lake Michigan were cut 50%. Low water in northwestern Michigan spawning streams where most of the wild-origin fish originate knocked the 2013 wild-origin year class down to 1.7 million smolts, rather than the 3.8-5 million fish average.

Current acoustic and trawl sampling (full recruitment to gear occurs at age-III) catches have ticked back up to 53 kt. of alewife...with spawning age alewife from three year-classes now present in good numbers. Intra-specific competition is so low that some Age-II fish are now sexually mature in alewife stocks. Pretty interesting in a productivity limited system.

So, what happened?

Todd Kalish instructed Wisconsin's Lake Michigan Committee member to decline their lake trout allotment in the 2016 plants, instead opting to go with added Chinook equivalents in their stocking. Chinook equivalents are calculated from current food conversion at length data on species specific basis. This cut lake trout stocking of 10" juveniles by 27 percent and they cut brown trout by 12%. Michigan had cut Fall fingerlings, but has also moved to cut some juvenile lake trout stocking in the southern end of the basin.

The weak 2013 year class of wild-origin fish pulled the Chinook stock down significantly, since the 50% plant reduction was made in spring smolt plants in 2013. Chinook wild-origin stocks have built back over the last five years to begin to approach their 3.8-5million smolts per year average production in Lake Michigan. Lake Huron wild-origin fish still continue to swim over into Lake Michigan, returning each fall to aggregate off natal streams. Over the last two years, Age II and Age III wild-origin fish have not made the trip over to Lake Michigan in high numbers....but fresh wound classification evidence via sea lamprey indicates Lake Huron Chinook are suffering higher sea lamprey wounding rates that lake trout in that basin, so the absence in April-August in Lake Michigan may be driven by a larger mortality component.

Wild origin Chinook in Lake Michigan compose 68-71% of the open lake stock, depending on whose estimates you embrace from CWT data. Lake trout stock proportion that is wild-origin, arrayed by basin segment are: 36% south to 2% north(tribal commercial fishing is the largest mortality component in the north). Basin wide 30% of the lake trout stock is wild. Lake Huron lake trout stocks are declining in several basin sub-sections, but are now 65% wild origin fish.

CORA biologists have made much of the expanding lake herring stock in northeastern Lake Michigan, immediately launching a commercial fishery for them. Dave Warner was able to sample three of these fish with the mid-water trawl that they haul concomitantly with the sonar array to ground-truth their echo signals from sample targets...after thirty-some transects in both Traverse Bay and northeastern Lake Michigan. If you listen to the Odowa Band fishery biologist, "these fish will be the savior of the Great Lakes, post alewife stock crash."
View attachment Hunter+fall brown+male.jpgView attachment IMG_0976.jpgView attachment salmon+7302017.jpgView attachment IMG_0986.jpg
 
Last edited:
RLLigman said:
tod osier said:
Oops... meant to type ? have a good one ?, I am not much of a doer, I guess. Darm it.

Oh, shucks dang...Freudian slip?

Well, as Ron White far better stated, "You had the right to remain silent, but not the ability." Yes, you owe Pat Gregory an apology.

You get a fresh crop of "twenty-somethings" each year to direct to think in the same narrow corridor, the same way you do...how exciting.

I promise, when I want to get a much better understanding of quaking aspen, I will contact you specifically for that update.

I fish because fish are "fun to catch", and I like to eat most of the species I fish for. Members of the char family are very easy to catch, as well as fish-out, why I seldom fish for brook trout. If, like a steelhead, I don't care for them as table fare, I don't keep them. Well, except for the three steelhead I lost in the last four days while netting them...

Interesting that you are pushing given that there is an active thread about your inability to participate appropriately here.

I'm not going to try to get into a discussion with you since you have proven that you aren't able to keep it civil and resort to personal attacks, including personal attacks of my appearance of all things.

You have a lot to offer here, why don't you tone it down a bit and try to integrate into the community.
 
Back
Top