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Boss shotgun ammo

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Boss shotgun ammo
 
Has anyone used Boss ammo in their older "shoot guns"?

It has my interest, for my old model 12's, 16ga,. and 12ga.

Any info would be much appreciated.











"Art does not reproduce what is visible - but makes things visible." ~ Paul Klee, artist, 1920
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
Vince

there has been a recent discussion about them on the Fox Gun Collector's members section

they seem to be well regarded, here is a cut and paste a summary of the comments on there

the original posted question


"Has anybody here tried the BOSS COPPER PLATED BISMUTH SHELLS in there Fox guns. Any thoughts very much appreciated"



the relevant replies



"My friend that I went to Canada with shot those and Kents out of his super fox. No issues, but seemed to shoot the kents better. He spoke with them on the phone about the loads which is nice. They sold him a case of the shells he asked them to make. Don't know if they will do so the larger they get."


"here is the link to them https://bossshotshells.com/bismuth/ I have been hearing a lot of people really bragging on them. There page says out of stock. I called them and ordered 20 GA 2 3/4 #5s VELOCITY 1350 and had them in 2 days. I was wondering what everybody thoughts where on shooting them in my HE 20ga"


"Pretty hot loads, with stout pressures I'll bet. Without knowing the pressures I'd be very reluctant to use them in my vintage duck guns, even HEs. But, I may be erring on the side of caution. My 1 1/4 oz. Bismuth reloads kill very good, out of my tight choked guns, at way less velocity.

Thanks for the link. Bet they pattern nice if, as was mentioned earlier, they have a true copper plating, thick enough to give a bit of hardness to the exterior and help patterns."





Rick




"Just because the man does not offer you a drink Hastings, does not mean he is automatically guilty of other crimes" Agatha Christie's Poirot

Last edited by:

Rick L: Nov 10, 2019, 3:46 PM
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
Rick

Speaking of super fox. I contacted a gunsmith that came highly recommended about refurbing my super. He mentioned the 2 3/4" and 3" were built on different frames. Is that correct? For that reason he said he would not enlarge my chambers from 2 3/4" to 3". I seem to recall Jeff planned on doing that and I know Jeff was very knowledgeable. Do you know if a 2 3/4" super can be made to shoot 3"?

Eric

Last edited by:

Eric Patterson: Nov 10, 2019, 5:11 PM
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
I sincerely doubt the different size frame story. I think that is more polite than saying he is full of #}@

All 12 bore Supers have 0 weight barrels and that matches the frame size ( I am assuming you do not have one of the ultra rare 20 gauge Supers, if you do and you alter it - may God have mercy on your soul. I have handled a couple and they are sweet )

I am friends with two folks that I consider the most knowledgeable people around about Supers, Fox had a specific unique chamber reamer for cutting 3" Supers one guy had a special tool made to identify factory cut chambers verses after market. And he has checked several dozen of them. There are several guns that are not marked 3" but have proper factory cut 3" chambers. Their expert opinion is that gun was in inventory as a 2 3/4 and was opened to 3" when needed to fulfill a customer's request for a 3" with that gun's weight and dimensions, some factory cards still exist to support this theory

Having said that, I really don't see a need to modify one, it will hurt its collector value and personally I doubt will make it a better hunting tool. The guys in our group with factory 3" chambers still shoot only 2 3/4 Kent TM to great effect

For those with the skills to match Nash Buckingham's reach ( and that is a small club ) that is all they need

PS - check your PMs




"Just because the man does not offer you a drink Hastings, does not mean he is automatically guilty of other crimes" Agatha Christie's Poirot

Last edited by:

Rick L: Nov 11, 2019, 7:17 AM
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
 
Rick -

Thank you very much for the info.


I read that Nash Buckingham shot his last duck at the ripe old age of 94. Gives us Geezers hope, even though most of us are not in his class of shot gunners.


Best regards
Vince











"Art does not reproduce what is visible - but makes things visible." ~ Paul Klee, artist, 1920
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
Vince Pagliaroli wrote:



I read that Nash Buckingham shot his last duck at the ripe old age of 94. Gives us Geezers hope, even though most of us are not in his class of shot gunners.


Best regards
Vince



glad to help Vince

without digging the book out- working off faded memory - Nash's last hunt was organized by the son of one of his old original hunting partners shortly before his death - he passed at the age of 90 (co-incidentally that is about the age that George Bird Evans passed (91) shortly after his last hunt - GBE brought Nash to the attention of a new generation of hunters

it wonderful see "experienced" outdoorsman still in the field, two weeks ago I was in the marsh with one of our members - still very active in his mid 80's. I had the dog out working a retrieve when a gadwall made the mistake of trying to avoid danger by setting his wings at the far side of the pond. the right barrel of my friend's Super Fox showed the error of his ways- it flipped over in the air and landed on it's back with feet in the air. And Macallan got to make an easy 60 yard retrieve




"Just because the man does not offer you a drink Hastings, does not mean he is automatically guilty of other crimes" Agatha Christie's Poirot

Last edited by:

Rick L: Nov 11, 2019, 7:41 AM
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
here is an additional comment on the BOSS thread on the Fox board-

this one is from a Eastern Shore guy who collects and shoot Fox guns very well including his Supers

and I know him personally and value his opinion

"Boss Shotshells had a display booth & trailer amongst many other vendors at the Waterfowl Festival over the weekend in Easton, MD. The factory rep was a very knowledgeable young lady who expounded freely on the technological advantages of the new shot; also had clear plastic tubed examples of the different shot sizes they offer along with a rap on their special wads and reloading process, etc. Good looking stuff!! Reminded me of the early 1970's vintage Federal copper plated lead waterfowl shot which we switched to and used exclusively for Canada goose shooting out of pits -BBs - and which we stayed with until the prohibition on lead shot came in and we had to switch to steel. If I was still a goose hunter, I'd buy and try the stuff out. Good product, good presentation, valid testimonials, and samples in hand to look at and examine - I liked it."




"Just because the man does not offer you a drink Hastings, does not mean he is automatically guilty of other crimes" Agatha Christie's Poirot
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
 
Rick -

Regarding Mr. Buckingham. I had read the story before about his last hunt at Beaver Dam. When I recently read he was 94, I kinda doubted that.


As far as your story about your "experienced" club member, clocking that far side Gadwall with his Super Fox, and Macallan's retrieve. It does not get much better than that.

I have always liked Gadwall's. There appeared to be more of them in western NY this early season. As long as I've hunted they were always a staple in western PA. Wigeon seem to be more prevalent here, another of my favorite mid size puddlers.


I appreciate the added info from the gentleman at Easton. Boss seems to be a company geared to customer satisfaction. I'm more interested in the 2 3/4" shells, than the 3".

The Sports Afield Fall Classic Hunting Issue 2019, has a article about hunting with older shotguns by John M. Taylor.

At the end of the article, he writes about patterning Boss 2 3/4" and 3" shells, using his 3 inch Super Fox, 040 extra full choke. Produced center dense 60 to 70% patterns with both shells.

Could be I will pick up a few boxes to try before the season comes back in.

Again thank you for your reply, and info.


Best regards
Vince











"Art does not reproduce what is visible - but makes things visible." ~ Paul Klee, artist, 1920
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
Hi Guys
As a Nash Fan I have read most of his stuff and did multiple searches over the years regarding his shotgun. It is my understanding that the 3" Super Fox was actually built on a 'light 10" frame. Recall the 10 gauges of the day had a 2 7/8 chamber hence it was a simple matter of just boring the barrels to 3" 12 gauge. The larger 10 gauge bores improved the patterns and is now being duplicated on some modern shotguns

Not wanting to spend the $4000 to $5000 on a Super Fox I did acquire a LVD Francotte Lite 10 (1930's) that was converted to 3" 12 gauge by Briley. My past experience with Bismuth was a disaster. The metal is just to brittle - frangible. I cant tell you how many shattered pellets I have found in feathers and cripples chased.

I am currently loading ITX in #2 and #4. 1 1/4 loads are great, are fast / kill cleanly and don't break the bank. The gun patterns great. Few year back I surprised my friends when we shot the long bird event at the Cancer Shootout

I have a framed photo of Nash and Chubby on my mancave wall. Nash did not have any children but I happened to a pup some years back to a Dr. In Michigan that was friends with one of Chubby's sons.

If there's any interest I will repost the shotgun in classified at a lower price

Have Fun

[inline Full image cropped.jpg]
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes" - Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by:

Paul Strombeck: Nov 11, 2019, 5:26 PM
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
Fox never made a 10- light or otherwise - the Super was built on an action designed for this special purpose as were the 0 weight barrels, early Supers were lightly overbored and tightly choked to a design originated by Bert Becker a Philadelphia gunsmith and master barrel borer

BTW- Nash had a daughter that he thought the world of- I think she carried her mother's name -Irma
he lived with her and her husband Roy Whitt in his final days. I believe his Granddaughter is still alive




"Just because the man does not offer you a drink Hastings, does not mean he is automatically guilty of other crimes" Agatha Christie's Poirot

Last edited by:

Rick L: Nov 11, 2019, 6:00 PM
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
 
I have not shot Bismuth out of my Heavy Duck model 12, since the No Tox, Bismuth, and it was like shooting a pumpkinball. I was not impressed.

Boss Bismuth is copper plated. My interest is in the 2 3/4 #5's for my 16ga. mod. and also for the Duck Gun. The 3" 12ga. shells I have no interest in, at this time.

Prior to the no lead shot mandate, # 5's were my favorite size shot, for ducks and pheasants. Many a time while hunting we would encounter both, and #5's would do the job just fine.

If the Boss shells can match the performance, or come close, to lead #5's I would be a happy man.











"Art does not reproduce what is visible - but makes things visible." ~ Paul Klee, artist, 1920
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
Vince Pagliaroli wrote:

I have not shot Bismuth out of my Heavy Duck model 12, since the No Tox, Bismuth, and it was like shooting a pumpkinball. I was not impressed.

Boss Bismuth is copper plated. My interest is in the 2 3/4 #5's for my 16ga. mod. and also for the Duck Gun. The 3" 12ga. shells I have no interest in, at this time.

Prior to the no lead shot mandate, # 5's were my favorite size shot, for ducks and pheasants. Many a time while hunting we would encounter both, and #5's would do the job just fine.

If the Boss shells can match the performance, or come close, to lead #5's I would be a happy man.






i have a lot of bismuth shot (Eley brand) for loading, but i don't use it much. I did manage to put a lot of the old Nice Shot aside before it went out of production, and i also bought a fair amount of Kent factory TM shells a couple years ago when I found a good sale.

but i agree - these shells sound interesting - i have no doubt the Super Fox and the LC Smith Longranges can handle the load- and the Model 12 heavy duck is a no brainer for anything less than a 1/2 stick of dynamite, the problem will be getting them shipped to NY.

since the first split ended two days ago - and winter arrived yesterday - i have my doubts about getting into the marsh for the late split- so I guess there is no hurry




"Just because the man does not offer you a drink Hastings, does not mean he is automatically guilty of other crimes" Agatha Christie's Poirot

Last edited by:

Rick L: Nov 12, 2019, 8:45 AM
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
 
Rick -

I agree about the no hurry.

Hopefully a thaw is coming prior to, or during, when the season reopens. I have had some incredible duck hunts after a thaw. The birds always know.

One of the members here wrote that Bud's will ship to NY. The problem may be finding the ammo.

The Boss website sez most shells are on back order, except 16ga. If you have a favorite local gun shop they may order them for you.

I'm gonna have to check with friends I have elsewhere, and those that do lots of traveling.

Could be one of those "wait until next year" deals.











"Art does not reproduce what is visible - but makes things visible." ~ Paul Klee, artist, 1920
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
OK

this just in on the Fox board

OUCH - that is a bit much for me in an old double

"I contacted BOSS Shotshells last night and this is what they told me.
We set our 12 and 20?s with a max pressure of 13,000 psi at room temp."




"Just because the man does not offer you a drink Hastings, does not mean he is automatically guilty of other crimes" Agatha Christie's Poirot
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
  
I have shot the Boss 20 ga 2 3/4" 5s out of a 50 year old Beretta and an 80 year old Model 12. Works fine for me. I'm not sure it is the same as shooting lead but it seems better than steel.
I do think it is modern ammo. They make no claims its low pressure but that any SAAMI spec gun should handle it fine.
Thes 20ga loads are 7/8oz at 1350fps, very mild to shoot in my light Beretta. And have done a good job on the pheasants I've been shooting.
Oh and even though the new tin mix makes them less brittle that doesn't mean you won't see any shattered pellets. I find one or two in some birds that have broken all apart. But must penetrate well.







-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Ah Nuts!"

http://snipehunterfishart.blogspot.com/

Last edited by:

TimJ: Nov 15, 2019, 7:14 AM
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
i shoot the Kent in my heavy doubles, (9900psi for the 12ga 1 1/4)

not too worried about the Model12 Heavy Duck

but 13K is well above the last SAAMI specs that I knew of



I do wonder if that quote is 100% accurate, but its from someone I have no reason to doubt



its always the shooters choice-
but my doubles (even the waterfowl models) are not as heavy walled as the Model 12 and on top of that - its 100 year old wood
I have stacks of Kents and more loose shot than I will likely use, so no sense in the risk




"Just because the man does not offer you a drink Hastings, does not mean he is automatically guilty of other crimes" Agatha Christie's Poirot

Last edited by:

Rick L: Nov 15, 2019, 10:35 AM
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
 
Tim -

Thanks for the info and the photo's, especially the second mixed bag photo.


Best regards
Vince











"Art does not reproduce what is visible - but makes things visible." ~ Paul Klee, artist, 1920
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
 
Rick -

Thanks for posting the chart.

I'm not too concerned about the 12ga. Heavy Duck Gun.

The model 12, 16ga. is of concern, as it's a 1935, and the gun I prefer to shoot.

May have to look for another option.


VP











"Art does not reproduce what is visible - but makes things visible." ~ Paul Klee, artist, 1920
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
I am on my second case. I went to Saskatchewan this year and I was using Boss 2.75? 1.25oz #4. They performed very well through my A400+ with factory improved cylinder. I will be shooting #5s now because they were out of 4s. On my most recent hunt, I shot a goldeneye at 40yards and had more clean kills that were cripple free. I really like the shells.
Nobody lies on their deathbed saying "I wish I had worked more"
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
Vince, et al.

I have a tremendous respect for this group and the knowledge it shares. I come with limited ballistic background, but a lot of research into shell pressures as someone trying to figure out loads to shoot from a 1937 Belgian SxS that was bored from 2.5" to 2.75"......

If you have a "duck gun" post WWII, let's go with >1950... I CANNOT say you have nothing to worry about; however, all my research suggests you'll be able shoot a quality bismuth load without damage to the gun from the shell. This does not mean an unkempt gun or wrong load, etc can't cause problems..... buyer beware....

If your gun is "pre" WWII, so, earlier than than the 1940's(?), there seems to be a gray area. This includes the years leading up to WWII. This APPEARS to be the primary transition from black powder to Nitro as a standard, additionally, it was the transition from shorter to longer shells, 2.5" and 2.75" to 2.75" and 3". This period appears questionable for the validity of the tests used, total weight of the arms, type/quality/thickness of the barrel, etc From what I can tell, best pressures for pre-WWII shotguns is in the +/- 8,000 pressure range. Better than black powder, but would be appear to be pre-"high brass" range. This is, from my limited vocabulary, the full post Damascus era. If you have Damascus, Twist, or "laminated" barrels, that's an entirely different pressure spectrum. Add tp this the actual "QUALITY OF THE ARM MANUFACTURED"..... it's whole generation of arms for the layman to confuse....

RST Shotshells sells non-tox in 2.5" for my ''37, but it's $65 a box.

So, my 1937 Forgeron has enough barrel weight to shoot higher 2.75" loads ("back bored" from 2.5" after being brought to the States) under it's Nitro Proof and inspection by a qualified gunsimth, but it appears to be a far lighter gun than those developed post-WWII, regardless of barrel strength.... it might not have enough stock weight, so, the wood dies under the firing line..... and the wood is luxurious to my hunter's 'eye'....

SAAMi standards for the US were founded in 1926; however, current ANSI ratings for SAAMI date to 1975.

I am admittedly a novice in this space. Given the risk of bad ballistics or things that didn't work our I only hope my experience influences hunters in the direction that is right for them.....

Your Belgain A5 or your dad's Model 12 are LIKELY going to shoot market Bismuth loads just fine. If your gun is pre-WWII you should investigate significantly into available loads. A 1916 Parker is a thing to behold, buy it may not be a thing to be shot....

There does seem to be a "bright line" developing in "Vintage", which appears to be pre-1916: "Classic" from 1916 to late 1930's' and "Pre-steel", which is designed for heavier loads but not a gun that can reasonably accept steel since it's from the 'lead era'.

I only hope this adds to the discussion. I am still on the journey and exploring non-tox reload so I can return this once "duck gun" back to duck hunting. The "House of Fogeron" transitioned from founder to son/step son/key man sometime around the making of my shotgun. There is a lot of history, and to not have the tool serviceable, in it's absolute beauty, is heart breaking. But to ruin it, and be a safety risk, I'm fearful.

I hope this make sense, and hope the better knowledged like Tim J have additional insight. The info I have is based on internet research, and that's generally pretty cloudy....
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When things are good in my life, ducks fly in my dreams. When things are bad, they don't.
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
just a couple points Rob

the transition to smokeless began in the last quarter of the 1800's and smokeless was the norm by WWI
Winchester's Super X heavy progressive burning load was introduced in 1922

IMHO picking WWII as a marker may be a little misleading - there were many well built heavy duty guns made before that and many lighter guns and some poorly made guns after that - each one needs to be evaluated on its own

Ithaca came out with the NID in 1926 - a gun specifically designed to handle heavier smokeless loads better than the pre WWI Flues design

the Super Fox came out about 1922 and was purpose built (many with 3" chambers) to pattern heavy loads at long range,



Parker built some heavy 12 gauges on their number 3 frame (normally one step up in the 10 gauge frame size range) my 32" 3 frame 12ga Parker was made in 1902 and was chambered for 2 3/4 - it continues to digest waterfowl loads without issue.



and LC Smith was not going to be left behind when they built the LongRange model with 3" chambers in the late 1920's











"Just because the man does not offer you a drink Hastings, does not mean he is automatically guilty of other crimes" Agatha Christie's Poirot

Last edited by:

Rick L: Dec 5, 2019, 5:44 AM
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
 
This has become a very enlightening discussion, and I appreciate all the input on the subject.


The model 12, Heavy Duck that I am the current care taker of was made in 1955. It shoots Winchester 3", lead, turkey loads very well, and has been my turkey gun for over 20 years,in Spring and Fall. So far no problems, but not many shots are fired turkey hunting.

In all my years shooting a shotgun. The only real problems I ever encountered were with reloads (given to me in lean times 1970's), prior to steel shot. The problems were very serious, for me as well as the man that gave me the shells. I have never used a reload in any of my guns since, nor plan to in the future.

When you witness a shogun burst from a heavy loaded round, it is something that one never forgets.











"Art does not reproduce what is visible - but makes things visible." ~ Paul Klee, artist, 1920
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
I appreciate the points Rick, particularly regarding the transition from black powder. My focus has been specifically on Belgian guns so my research is quite biased towards what was going on in Liege during the era.

Through my internet travels with the '37 Belgian it has appeared the post Damascus/Pre-WWII era produced a rather wide range of quality as Standards developed (SAAMI 1926, Liege 1924, Rules of Proof 1925 London). Where as black powder/Damascus have generated a "bright line" of Don't Shoot/Wall Hnagers, the gray era pre-WWII everything seems like a case by case basis. In Belgium, the parts were often made by contractors in their homes and there were multiple barrel manufacturers of varying degrees of quality and reputation. No one appears too worked up over Post-WWII barrels. It seems you might have a crappy gun but the barrel isn't going to send shrapnel with factory loads.

I don't doubt Tim J can shoot BOSS just fine. I'm guessing my '37 would as well. Vince's '35 likely wouldn't have any problem.

When I look at my SxS, factor in 85 years of life, consider the relatively 'new' technology and measurement standards at the time of it's manufacture, remain confounded that I cannot find any copy of printed standards from that era (like that you supplied above) and contemplate that the forearm is the most beautiful piece of wood I've ever held in my hands..... low pressure shells seem like the better option. The BIGGEST challenge is finding non-tox shells at lower pressures. RST has 2.5" bismuth for $65 a box. HeviShot Classic Doubles comes in 2 3/4" around $50 for 25 shells if you can find it and don't read the reviews.

Low pressure lead is readily available.
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When things are good in my life, ducks fly in my dreams. When things are bad, they don't.
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
i do also shoot damascus waterfowl guns, Parkers and and British. My only Belgium gun is a nice quality Henri Pieper made in 1877 - light and fast
handling, I love carrying it in woodcock covers



But I do hand load - really, hand load, measure each powder and shot charge - low pressure Nice Shot or bismuth loads for the Damascus and short chambered waterfowl guns.

Vince says he doesn't shoot reloads, and I'll agree for repeaters - factory only for my Model 12 heavy duck - in spite of my care, I won't take a chance of a bad load leaving an unseen wad in a barrel -- BTW - same for shooting clays - i reload for doubles but when I take the Model 12 (the only repeater I shoot) to the range- its quality factory shells




"Just because the man does not offer you a drink Hastings, does not mean he is automatically guilty of other crimes" Agatha Christie's Poirot
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Re: Boss shotgun ammo In reply to
Thank you for the information Rick. I anticipate I'll be starting to hand load in the new year.

I do wish the factory non-toxic options were a bit more developed, but I traded a fishing rod/reel combo for a beautiful firearm. The scarcity of shells is the cost of ownership I undertook in the trade.

Vince, I wish you the best in your search.

Very best,

Rob
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When things are good in my life, ducks fly in my dreams. When things are bad, they don't.