What laws do you commonly see broken by duck hunters?

Mark W

Well-known member
I was out cruising the web and came across a question posed on the Refuge (I think this was the site). The thread was 20 pages long and was a really interesting discussion. Thought I would pose the question here and see what the responses are.

After reading the thread, I have been guilty of more than one of them at some point in my 40 plus years of hunting ducks. And as much as I hate to admit, am guilty of one law to this day - tagging birds. It isn?t that I am intentionally breaking the law, I guess I was unaware that I am breaking this law.

Just to get the discussion going, some of the most common laws mentioned that are broken would include, early or late shooting, possession limits, party hunting, shooting a duck and then ID?ing it, no running lights, shooting a cripple while from a boat still moving from the propulsion of the motor (after the motor was shut down); and so on.....

Not meant to start a pissing match but thought it might be an interesting discussion.

Mark
 
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If you are including goose hunters in your survey and are including the good old days I would say the most common violation I saw at the LQP refuge was violating the 6 shell /day regulation.
 
Mark

Tagging birds for what reason? You hunt solo a lot and pretty much travel to and from your residence, correct? Are you suggesting birds need to be tagged in those cases? Or are you referring to hunting with other hunters, possibly on a trip and crossing state or international boundaries, and the need to separate an id each hunters ducks. Please explain. Thanks.

Eric
 
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Eric Patterson said:
Mark

Tagging birds for what reason? You hunt solo a lot and pretty much travel to and from your residence, correct? Are you suggesting birds need to be tagged in those cases? Or are you referring to hunting with other hunters, possibly on a trip and crossing state or international boundaries, and the need to separate an id each hunters ducks. Please explain. Thanks.

Eric

I do hunt solo most of the time. According to the law as written, one is guilty of not tagging birds if you hunt with more than one person and lets say at the end of the hunt you put all the birds shot by everyone in the back of the pick up and drive off. If the birds are separated by hunter in the back or the truck, you are technically guilty but are generally given leeway. Even if the birds are separated, and not tagged, you are in violation of the written law.

Lets say you are hunting with a group of buddies and each person shot a few ducks. Let's say you put all these ducks into one bag and carry them to your vehicle. If you were stopped by a warden on the way to your vehicle you would be guilty of not tagging the birds. How many pictures have been posted on this site of a pile of birds in the back of a pick up? Technically, the person whose truck it is, and the person taking the photo could be guilty of not tagging the birds as they were not separated and tagged to each individual hunter.

Another example would be me hunting ducks at our cabin, shooting a few and leaving them in the garage for a day before cleaning. This isn't my permanent residence and they weren't tagged and they were left in the garage and I went somewhere for a little while, technically a violation from what I have read.

Another example. I'm hunting with a few buddies, shoot some ducks and place them near where I am set up. I leave the blind for a short period of time to take a leak, or go find a downed/crippled bird. If the birds I shot are not tagged, and I leave, I, or my buddies could be guilty of not tagging the birds or if they have their limit already, they are guilty of passing more than their limit.

Lots of nuances I never thought of and to be honest, I have not tagged a bird ever and never even knew this existed. Good analysis here on this site. http://toetagsllc.com

One person even speculated that if you stop on the way home from a hunt to have breakfast and leave untagged ducks in your vehicle, you could be in violation of this law. Don't know if I agree on this one but it was mentioned.

If people were honest here, I would venture a guess that many of us have broken, knowingly or unknowingly, these Federal laws. Poorly written and open to lots of interpretation by my reasoning.

? 20.35 - Field possession limit.
No person shall possess, have in custody, or transport more than the daily bag limit or aggregate daily bag limit, whichever applies, of migratory game birds, tagged or not tagged, at or between the place where taken and either (a) his automobile or principal means of land transportation; or (b) his personal abode or temporary or transient place of lodging; or (c) a migratory bird preservation facility; or (d) a post office; or (e) a common carrier facility.
[41 FR 31536, July 29, 1976]
[/url]https://www.customsmobile.com/regulations/expand/title50_chapterI_part20_subpartD_section20.36#top ? 20.36 - Tagging requirement.
No person shall put or leave any migratory game birds at any place (other than at his personal abode), or in the custody of another person for picking, cleaning, processing, shipping, transportation, or storage (including temporary storage), or for the purpose of having taxidermy services performed, unless such birds have a tag attached, signed by the hunter, stating his address, the total number and species of birds, and the date such birds were killed. Migratory game birds being transported in any vehicle as the personal baggage of the possessor shall not be considered as being in storage or temporary storage.
[/url]https://www.customsmobile.com/regulations/expand/title50_chapterI_part20_subpartD_section20.36#top ? 20.37 - Custody of birds of another.
No person shall receive or have in custody any migratory game birds belonging to another person unless such birds are tagged as required by ? 20.36.

Mark
 
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Mark -

Your post is right on the money, literally.

I have tagged birds many times, in the USA, and Canada, and not tagged birds.


From personal experience when the Feds and state DEC's want to come down hard this law is enforced, and used to it fullest to wake watefowlers up the hard way.

Layout gunners are especially at risk, as are shore gunners in blinds on public areas.

In the past when things got out of hand in public areas, the tagging law would get hunters attention pronto.

It also gets new hunters out of the sport when they get the ticket.

The law cuts both ways.


On a routine basis, with the myriad of waterfowling laws, it is damn near impossible to be within the law at all times.

As a good friend in law enforcement once told me. If we want you, there is always a law that will get ya, no one is immune.
 
Mark

Thank you for the lengthy, yet informative response.

I agree with Vince, these are the violations they bring out when they want to nail you, and perhaps don't have enough proof to get you for other violations.

Just think about all the body pile pictures you've seen. Technically a lot of violations are put on public display, yet almost never is it mentioned laws are not strictly being adhered to. However, if the law ever did want to make a case the penalties could be rough.

On a side note, I can foresee the guys marketing toe tags by getting their tags in social media pictures and before long everyone will want to be a "cool kid" with toe tags. Not a bad thing but it will be driven by "style" rather than desire to adhere to the law.

Next up, The Lacey Act....
 
I guess what I found most interesting in the other forum was the interpretation of the laws. One person would see it one way, and another would say the law didn't apply. This happened in many of the posts. My belief, maybe naively, is that most hunters want to do the right thing and most hunters want to be law abiding and ethical. There are exceptions I realize but in general, I believe this to be true.

Couple of other examples cited I've not thought of.

Where I tend to hunt I have limited visibility as these areas are heavily wooded. On the other side of the woods it is very open. Suppose a warden is watching me hunt and he is set up in the open area. I shoot at a duck and miss (not uncommon). The duck flies out of my field of vision and it drops dead a few hundred yards away. If I didn't see it drop dead but the warden does, I could be technically guilty of many violations. 1. Wanton waste. 2. Making no effort to retrieve a downed bird. 3. If I get my limit and drive to the ramp and the warden shows me a bird I didn't get, now I am over my limit.

Or this one I found interesting as well.

If I shoot a duck and it lands somewhere within view, it is deader than a doorknob, and I don't retrieve it right away is it considered in my possession? I know I am guilty of not retrieving the bird immediately but is it technically in my possession. Think of the ramifications of this one.

Or how about cripples you never found. Are they legally required to be counted in your bag? I would say no but there were examples cited where it is argued it is legally required to be included. Makes one think about it for sure.

How about carrying a handgun in the blind. Depending upon which law is cited, it could be illegal or perfectly legal. If it is a lead bullet in the pistol probably illegal. How about an approved shot bullet? Are you now legal or illegal. How about if you have a carry and conceal permit can you legally carry it into the blind?

Or how about how early can you load your shotgun, if at all, before legal shooting time?

Just found it all interesting and as mentioned, most anyone could be found guilty of some violation depending upon interpretation of the law, the game warden involved, attitudes, other past violations in the area one is hunting and so on and so on.

Mark
 
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Mark

Around here I've never heard of citations for the examples you stated. Maybe our wardens are more laid back than other states but I think they are fairly representative. Basically if you follow the top tier laws (license, stamps, WMA permit, shooting hours, non-tox ammo, seasons, bag limits, etc.) you will reduce the likelihood of a cited game violation to dang near zero. I think the most basic laws protect waterfowl populations adequately. I view laws beyond the basics as geared to stop and punish grotesque abuse of the resource, usually for financial gains, e.g. Jeff Foiles. We need both kinds of laws, to keep the vast majority of hunters from abusing the resource, and to keep those driven by financial motives from raping the resource.

Eric
 
But to answer your original question the violations I observe more than any others are 1) rallying, 2) shooting outside legal hours and 3) shooting over the limit.

There is hardly a wood duck roost on remote public land along the TN River in North Ala safe from late shooting poachers. We have two game wardens per county and they can't possibly patrol remote spots with any regularity so it largely goes unchecked. They have to deal with all sorts of calls (deer and small game), not just duck hunting, and these keep them on the road most of the season and off the water. Having said that my son and friend reported late shooting two nights in a row to the county game warden. On the third night he nailed the violators. The perps boldness of shooting late in the same spot three days in a row got them busted.

In my estimation shooting over the limit seems most prevalent in non-residents (probably all game violations for that matter) who seem to think when they find a wad of ducks they need to get them good since they only have the opportunity on rare occasions. For the locals I know, shooting over the limit is mostly a product of group limits, and secondly taking an extra bird when a better trophy bird presents an opportunity.

As far as rallying it is such a common tactic most don't even know they are doing it. Guys who hunt Lake Guntersville consider running the boat around to scare rafted ducks into gunning range a standard tactic. Law enforcement hasn't done enough in enforcing or educating the public on this matter. I'm not talking about another boat scaring ducks while you are on the water. I mean a person from a hunting party leaves in their boat, runs through rafts of ducks, while his partners shoot any that come into range. Textbook examples of rallying happens everyday on the lake.

So when you bring up these rare ways a game warden can ticket my thoughts usually come back to the basics and how hard it is for game wardens to enforce these.

Great topic.

Eric
 
Eric Patterson said:
As far as rallying it is such a common tactic most don't even know they are doing it. Guys who hunt Lake Guntersville consider running the boat around to scare rafted ducks into gunning range a standard tactic. Law enforcement hasn't done enough in enforcing or educating the public on this matter. I'm not talking about another boat scaring ducks while you are on the water. I mean a person from a hunting party leaves in their boat, runs through rafts of ducks, while his partners shoot any that come into range. Textbook examples of rallying happens everyday on the lake.

Eric

Scouting you mean right?!? :).
 
The proliferation of the tagging posts has definitely caught my eye, especially as someone guilty of posting 'pile' pictures. I know that my birds were all harvested within the letter of the law, but taking that 'hero shot' can definitely get you unwanted attention.

I'm sure some of you have noticed all the Habitat Flats daily pictures have those toe tags highly visible now.

I'd say the one law that I would like to see adjusted, although I think most wardens will give you some slack, is the engine off, lack of forward motion stopped while chasing a cripple. I'm putting in max effort to make sure I don't lose a bird so don't write me a ticket for trying to do the right thing...
 

Eric -

Selling leg tags could be a business...[;)]

Printing them on card stock, with yer puter would work.

Have a good stack ready to use, in a zip lock plastic bag in yer blind bag, or gunning box.

Cuz ya never know.
 
Vince Pagliaroli said:
Eric -

Selling leg tags could be a business...[;)]

Printing them on card stock, with yer puter would work.

Have a good stack ready to use, in a zip lock plastic bag in yer blind bag, or gunning box.

Cuz ya never know.

Vince, Not for me but certainly a business for others. However, Thomas is headed to Kansas later this week with a few friends. I'm going by Office Depot tonight to pick up toe tags and other supplies for him and his partners. This thread was certainly well timed.

Eric
 
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Craig F said:
I'd say the one law that I would like to see adjusted, although I think most wardens will give you some slack, is the engine off, lack of forward motion stopped while chasing a cripple. I'm putting in max effort to make sure I don't lose a bird so don't write me a ticket for trying to do the right thing...

Here is MY legal question... seaward of the first bridge where you can legally shoot cripples under power... CAN YOU SHOOT FLYING CRIPPLES UNDER POWER????
 
Craig

I find ducks much more likely to surface nearby with the motor off. Think about it, sound travels faster underwater and helps the duck pinpoint where his pursuer is as they kick away. Shutting the motor off leaves them without an audible signal telling them where to move from. Motor off is better in my book.

Eric
 
No running lights and rallying is what I see the most of followed by early shooting.
I?ve never understood the no lights attitude when running in the dark or setting out decoys. It just doesn?t make sense.

Rallying vs. scouting is a fine line. Ive seen both result in dead ducks.

With today?s technology know exactly when 30 minutes before sunrise is a one brained and shooting early is plain stupid.
 
Never heard of a toe tag. What is it. If i hunt with a buddy and identify my birds by cutting off a leg is that tag enough?
My partner usually gave his birds to me because he would not eat them,then he would write a permission slip sign it and leave his personal info on it, never had a problem.
 
While there are a lot of law violations that can occur if you don't follow the regulations my pet peeve is people running a boat with not running lights. A great way to someone including your self.
 
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