Duckwater v Bankes boats

Jon D

New member
I'm in the market for a duck boat around 18', and am debating between the the Ocean 18 Duckwater and the Bankes crusader. I currently have a small aluminum and a 17' boston whaler, albeit the latter is hard to cover up as its a traditional pure white. I hunt the great lakes and occasionally an inland lake, so I need something that can handle the .5 to 1 meter waves with the 2 meter roll that we run into from time to time.

Thoughts? or know of anyone upgrading their equipment and need to find a new home for their duck killing machine?
 
Jeff Coats, aka Pitboss is selling his Bankes. Try him if you haven't already. jeff@pitbosswaterfowl.com

Eric
 
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This topic is like playing with matches. Strong opinions and flame wars exist all over the interwebs. My recommendation is to contact folks that own some of these boats and go see them and drive them. I did that when I was in the market. I based my decision on that experience and my assessment of what was important to me.

I don?t know if any duckboat I want to in either run into or with in 5 meter waves.
 
Both boats have pros and cons and both have been very successful in the duck hunting arena. I run a 23' ocean series Duck Water. My choice was largely dictated by the "boat ramps" I use during sea duck season. They are all either pure concrete ramps, no docks or over the beaches with sand and stone combination. My fear was that a Bankes or TDB simply would not withstand the constant beaching's I need to do just to get clients and friends in and out of the boat, never mind putting people on rocky islands. I don't run ice so not a consideration for me but many do. Many people are surprised to find out that Duck Water boats do not have any flotation in them, that is a deciding factor for some. I've run my D.W. for 4 seasons now and love it for the size and strength that it offers. I have a friend who runs a 17 TDB sea class and he enjoys his as well, but is basically governed to himself, two other people and a dog. I have run a 20' Lund Alaskan, 18' Bailey Bridge boat and my DW. When looking for a DW I was looking for a 21' boat. I ended up with a 23' and love it and also very glad I went bigger. My concern was loading alone, as all my launch areas have strong tidal cross current (which keeps them ice free) but also can be challenging when trying to load. The DW is actually easier to load than my 18' Bailey boat was simply because of the hull design. My boat is in the water 9-10 months a year, a great fishing boat as well. I'm not sure how a Bankes fishes if that is a concern. Good luck with your decision.
 
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I don?t know if any duckboat I want to in either run into or with in 5 meter waves.


[font=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]I think you missed the decimal point in front of that 5![/font]
 
As an exTDB owner i will agree with Troys' assessment and lean toward an aluminum hull for strength and longevity. But the Banks are a thing of beauty.
 
Yes, half a meter...[;)]

I've heard a few complaining about the welds on the DW, the issue being aesthetics. Never the less, thank you Troy for your take.
 
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I can't speak to the Banks... Most say that they have excellent finish and quality.

I have a 2008 Duckwater 21'... I came to it from a 19' Devlin Honker that I made. In the year that I have had it, it has been in ice up on the Mississippi, layout hunting on Lake Michigan, and Sea Ducking on the Atlantic. I have no complaints. Would I like bigger... heck yeah!!!! but that means a bigger motor. If you hunt harsh conditions... Lots of hard ice... destructive landings... and rock... I would lean toward the DW...
 
Jon, I think its best to first differentiate the Great Lakes from brackish and saltwater large water bodies. Wave period in freshwater is quite a bit shorter in a hard blow, making boat handling, control and ride issues significantly different from saltwater. IF you are not hunting Superior, which has only roughly ten percent of its shoreline as sand beach, you are not dealing with rocky shorelines and shelves. Huron has some rocky shoreline sections, but I can't think of any duck hunting hotspot that is not primarily sand. How long a run, on average do you make from the ramp to your principal hunting grounds is another consideration, since a Duckwater will cost you more to operate, since it is heavier.
Bankes are built via the same techniques as your Boston Whaler 17', as are Contender, Yellow Fin, Everglades. etc.; expanding closed cell foam injected between two laminate layers that comprise the deck and hull. The bow of a Bankes Crusader contains Kevlar 49 laminate layers, laid with ply direction running at a 45 degree angle to the underlayment. Beyond abrasion protection, Kevlar 49 also provides significant crush strength enhancement protection-think ice breaking at the ramp or the river to get out to open water. Olsen Marine also builds a TDB-21 that contains several plys of Kevlar 49 in the bow, and is a combinations of CNC machined synthetic stringers and ribs with foam injections used for both floatation and structural enhancement applications. Laminates are applied via vacuum injection, which yields a very strong final hull/deck layer. Most of their laminate consists of 1708 biaxial cloth, as does the Bankes Crusader, and all hulls Bankes makes, which are hand lay-up built. I put a Keel-Gard on all my fiberglass hulled boats to offset any damage from ramps and beaching.

I have owned three BWs as personal boats, and worked out of five others, as well as a variety of other fiberglass and welded aluminum hulls over a ten year interval as a Great Lakes Fishery Research biologist, on the water over that interval five days a week from ice-off to ice-on, as well as four years fishing gillnets under the ice on the St. Marys River. What do I like about a foam injection hull? The ride in the short wave period conditions common in the Great Lakes is well damped since the concussion of wave impact is spread over the breadth of the hull, minimizing pounding. I have hunted out of a Bankes Crusader for three years, owned by my partner. I found the boat for sale in Holland, Michigan and convinced Steve to go take a look. He was impressed enough to buy it. He has grown VERY fond of it. I own a TDB-17', which I have reworked extensively since purchase used. The Bankes provides a very stable work deck, is exceptionally well made, and handles rough water, as well as dangerous wave conditions better than my TDB. Customer support is second to none. It does need a pair of keelsons added to the hull about two and half feet out and parallel to the keel to gain some "bite", or a deeper keel, since it tends to blow around at slow setting speeds while deploying longlines. It has a very well made blind frame, and cockpit travel cover. I spent enough time freezing my butt off in welded aluminum west coast style fishing boats. Consequently, I am not a big fan of aluminum boats for use in cold weather waterfowling, particularly those that don't have floatation foam in them. Hunting waterfowl on the Great Lakes which kick-up faster than saltwater, particularly in Saginaw Bay and western Lake Erie, since they develop shorter wave period than saltwater in a blow, which is dangerous enough due to the season of the year, without adding-in the reality of a hull that will provide you no level of floatation support should something go desperately wrong.

I would also encourage you to research Wearlon Wetlander hull coating; super-slick and rock hard abrasion protection. I have it on my TDB now, since I hunt both Superior and northern Lake Michigan in an area riddled with dolomite limestone. Very nice addition when sliding a boat that size out of the mud after the water drops on a seiche event.

I have never figured-out how guides get liability insurance, hunting their clients out of a Duckwater.
 
Well said Rick. Never been questioned on the insurance other the standard, make, length, model etc. I also run a liability waiver. I surmise it's really no different than being on a guided trip in a canoe, whitewater raft or any commercial sea going vessel as I don't believe there's a lobster boat on the east coast with any flotation in it. We are simply required to carry the necessary safety equipment for our trips. I've looked into it a little bit and I think it's only "recreational" boats that are required to have foam? I think DW boats are registered under a "commercial" listing....Semantics, yes, but I think that's the reasoning.

Again, well said in defense of glass boats in rough terrain and the ride in rough lake water as you are correct about the tighter chop.

Troy
 
I was always under the understanding that the USCG set floatation requirements for boats up to 23-25 feet?

The former editor of Great Lakes Angler was doing a write-up of a new welded aluminum salmon boat on Lake Michigan about a decade back. Via a stupid move, they managed to wrap a stainless downrigger cable around the prop. on the main engine on the test boat in a heavy chop. They fought to keep the bow into the wind while simultaneously trying to raise the lower unit and unwrap the hung downrigger, without pulling the spread...bad idea. Two waves over the transom and the boat sank out from under them off the Indiana/Michigan border on a summer morning. Dave Mull donned a life jacket and swam for his camera bag, which, though floating was blowing away quickly. He finally gave up and grabbed the floating Igloo cooler bobbing in the waves, while he watch his crewmates drift out of sight in their life jackets. His crew mates were picked-up by a salmon troller a half hour later. They searched for their skipper, to no avail. Dave drifted north for over two hours on an alongshore current, prior being picked up by another sport troller. He never saw his camera bag again...over $3,000.00 lost, but was happy to be found. I swamped once on the St. Marys River doing larval fish tows at ice-out, and had a chance to go swimming once on Lake Michigan when I hadn't intended to while trying to free a gillnet with a boat hook from the jetty rocks on the north side of the Ludington Pumped Storage Power Plant. I was able to get the net free so the two guys in the boat could lift it and get away from the rocks, which meant I was on my own to swim in to the beach after one of the waves knocked me into the water- cold work, but not hypothermia conditions. I also clanked a log with an 18' Outrage running at night below the Rock Cut off Neegish Island. Again, the boat got us home, despite the damage that required us to run at hull speed.

I raced a pair of raised chainstay aluminum framed mountain bikes for several years, made out of Easton 7000 tubing. The dry course frame was a 19", set-up with Shimano XTR push shifters, brakes and cranks, and the mud bike was a 20" equipped with the old ancient Shimano XT thumb shifters and an XTR drivetrain with a surgical tubing shift augmentation strip on the rear derailleur that kept it under tension when the mud built-up on the frame and rollers. The frames were an aluminum version of Yeti's Ulitmate, a great mud running mountain bike that was the result of a design request by a number of mountain bike racers and writers. The Ultimate's were great bikes, but heavy, running right around 28-30lbs. What they did have was the resilience of steel frames that flexed, tied to the first elastomer equipped front shocks. My aluminum frame was a feather in contrast and like all aluminum alloy framed bikes, one of the harshest rides I had ever piloted on rough courses, as well as being quite "twitchy" on steep, fast and technical descents, in spite of the head tube and seat tube angles being optimal for a cross-country frame. I rode that bike in the Hayward to Cable, Wi., Fat Tire 40 along with over 3,000 other participants in one of the muddiest races I have ever been in on the American Birkebeiner Trail. It rained and hailed the entire night prior the race. At the beginning of the race trail everyone was all exuberant and chatty from all of their stored-up adrenaline loads. By mid-way the chatter had dropped to the shouts of riders announcing to the person ahead which side they were passing on. Near the end of the 43 mile course, there was no conversation, other than the sounds of people cramping and collapsing off their bikes in the really muddy sections. I swear, nearly every tandem that entered that race that year finished by be carried across the finish line. The only thing that saved me in that race were those old retro Shimano thumb shifters, which enabled me to feather my drivetrain settings in each gear to offset the mud build-up on the drive chain from popping the chain off. After that race, I bought a steel framed mountain bike.
 
I thought the floatation requirement was 20' Either way. My 2008 21' does have foam in it. I found it when I cut the rear bulkhead to put a pass through door in it. I will say that the amount of foam, would not be enough to float it submerged... but.. there was foam. I think I might have enough decoys to float it though! [;)]
 
Troy Fields said:
I've looked into it a little bit and I think it's only "recreational" boats that are required to have foam? I think DW boats are registered under a "commercial" listing....Semantics, yes, but I think that's the reasoning.


Troy

I believe the above statement is true. I remember looking at Jon boats on a dealers lot and being told the same. Same hull size could be purchased either way, with or with out foam. Only difference was one model was in their commercial listings and the other in the recreational category.
 
Brad Bortner said:
I don?t know if any duckboat I want to in either run into or with in 5 meter waves.


You wouldn't say that if you'd been out in a XXXXX boat with a big enough motor on plane. [;)]
 
As to the cost to operate Glass boats will usually weigh more that Aluminum. That is the case when comparing the Banks 21 and my 21 Duckwater. Mine hull weight is (.191") is 1600#. I believe the new hulls are .222-.250", so they will weigh a bit more. I could not find a weight listed on the Duckwater page. The Banks page lists the weight on their 21' at 2000#. Any efficiencies would be achieved in the hull design and how you use it.

The glass boat would feel warmer, I will say.
 
RLLigman said:
Troy Fields sent me this link for personal edification. I think it contains some worthwhile information and has broader utility as a differentiation point for commercial and sport hulls:

https://newboatbuilders.com/pages/commercial.html

Thanks, Troy!

Interesting article. My experience with the Jon boat dealer was way back in the '80's and as such I suspect the rules were just not enforced. Probably at least in part because the local counties, doing the registration, didn't have a clue, especially here in the Midwest.

I do know that about 6 years ago, the state of Iowa apparently was trying to update and bring some of their records, more into compliance. I received a letter from the state, which informed me that two of my vessels were registered with non-compliant hull numbers. I had two choices (A) have a NEW hull identification number assigned and engrave the new assigned number into the hull (B) take a pencil tracing or photo of the actual ID number presently on the hull, to confirm that the hull did in fact have that number. If I failed to do one of the above, The hull registration would no longer be able to be renewed, when it expired.
 
Rick, thank you for your thread. I do hunt Lake Erie around the Port Clinton area, most of the ramps there are cement and the shores are broken concrete blocks. in your opinion how would do the hulls of Bankes hold up. In general I agree with your assessment as we run Whalers for your stated reasons... 17' Montauck and a 25' Outrage
 
Michael's crew builds tough boats, with hulls much beefier than a standard BW's, whether it is from the Dougherty classic design era or more recent iterations which take full advantage of CAD analyses software to predict and adjust hull stress areas. When I sold my 2007 Conquest 235, out to the current San Juan Island owner in 2015, it had stress cracks in the gel coat in only two spots, once of which was a consequence of an overtight windshield machine screw mount point. My Bankes Hercules layout is bombproof construction, extended into their entire product line.

A Suzuki or a Yamaha 115hp four-stroke would be my powerhead choice, with a stainless skeg protector installed. IF you can find a deck section that is solid fiberglass in-line to the hull, you can install an internal transducer tied to a flasher style fishfinder unit that can be mounted well forward to give you a quick snapshot of how shallow you are running. I did this in my TDB-14'. The unit I mounted had a depth alarm function which actuated whenever I went shallower than five feet to provide me ample warning time.
 
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