Carbon-Core?

C

ChadW

Member
Hello Everyone!

I?m an unfamiliar face but have been a member here for approx 20 years. I don?t post much because my interests evolved way from homemade boats but like the old Jim Beam commercials, ?You always come back to the basics. So, 20 years after my first home built boat, I?m considering building a Devlin Bluebill or maybe a Clark Craft Broadbill to meet my current needs.

My questions revolve around the Carbon-Core laminated panels. They appear to be a dream material plywood replacement for these small watercraft. My understanding is that they are a plastic honeycomb core laminated to glass on both sides. These sheets are lighter than ply, water proof, chemical resistant, structurally sound, etc..

I did speak with a salesman and he was familiar with stitch and glue construction as well as framed construction of theses small craft. He told me that I could basically substitute these panels 1:1 for the ply called out in the plans.From what I can tell the only drawback is price and with a BOM as small as a 14? boat, the potential benefits may out weigh the additional cost.
Does none here have any experience with these panels or would I be the Gehenna pig?

https://www.carbon-core.com/...osite-panels-sheets/
 
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Interesting material. I'd call the company and ask for the contact info of a boat builder using their product. Looking at their website I don't see specific information on fasteners, adhesives, etc and only a brief mention of heat welding. What concerns me is the primary exterior material is polypropylene, which has historically been challenging to adhere to. Good luck.
 
Pete McMiller said:
Interesting material. What concerns me is the primary exterior material is polypropylene.
Click to expand...

I must be looking at a different product? I read polyester surface, which would be suitable with polyester resins (not epoxy). I do wonder about the edge bonding, such as in a typical scarf joint, where one is not bonding to the surface of a panel.


View attachment scrim.jpg
 
They do offer several products and their website is a bit confusing to navigate but the specifc product I'm interested in is the, "Composite Laminated Panels." They advertise these as a plastic honeycomb core sandwiched between fiberglass sheets. The sales guy I spoke with said they would work with poly or epoxy resins. He basically said I could substitute these for plywood and use the same process I would with wood.

I too wondered about scarfing the plastic honeycomb core but this may be a place to use something like the "Invisible Butt Joint" that Dave Carnell published on his boatbuilding page. I used this butt joint method on a Duckhunter I built 20 years ago and wouldn't hesitate to substitute it for a scarf joint. It held up to everything I threw at it for over 10 years.

If my math is correct, it would cost $120.00 more to use these composite panels in place of 1088 Okoume to build a Bluebill. I'd happily spend an additional 120 bucks to have a boat that's impervious to water. I am however, familiar with the old adage, "If it seems to good to be true, then it probably is." I'll reach out and see if they will provide me the contact info to someone that builds boats using these panels.

Below are the descriptions from their website on the panels I'm looking at.

"We manufacture 48″X96″ sheets of 17 oz WR +white gel-coated panels with 10-13-20-25 mm plastic honeycomb cores. These lightweight panels are wet laminated, molded products and suitable for structural use. Sizes up to 10?X50′ are available by special order up to 4″ thickness(102 mm). Laminations with 34 oz WR (woven Roving) are available by special order. These lightweight panels are our most impact resistant and chemically resistant panels available. Primary use for these laminated panels is all areas of marine construction, trailer and camper sidewalls, moisture and chemical resistant areas.

SANDED: ADD $ 0.45 per square foot per side GELCOAT: Fiberglass panels have a T102 pigment mixed in the skins. For regular Gelcoat add $.43 per SqFt. per side, for both sides $.86 SqFt. 40 gelcoat colors available, consult your sales representative for details. OTHER THICKNESSES (UP TO 18″) ARE AVAILABLE BY SPECIAL ORDER. SIZES OTHER THAN 4?X8′ ARE AVAILABLE. (up to 10?X50′ however, minimum order quantity of 500 sq ft applies to any custom size order) UPON REQUEST, CARBON-CORE HONEYCOMB AND FORMICA HPL CAN BE FLAME-RETARDANT. CARBON-CORE OFFERS CUT-TO-SIZE CNC CAPABILITIES. PLEASE CALL FOR QUOTE. OTHER SKINS, SUCH AS 34oz fiberglass, are available. Please call for a quote. PLEASE CALL FOR A QUOTE CONFIRMATION. PRICES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE. CARBON-CORE CONDITIONS OF SALE IN THE BROCHURE AND ON THE INVOICES APPLY. PUBLISHED QUANTITIES MUST BE STRICTLY ADHERED TO IN ORDER TO OBTAIN VOLUME DISCOUNTS. VOLUME DISCOUNTS APPLY PER PURCHASE ORDER. PRICES ARE F.O.B. ORIGIN (FOB: Troy, VA) OR AS OTHERWISE INDICATED AND PREPAID. CARBON-CORE LIMITS ITS WARRANTY TO THE FREE DELIVERY OF PANELS REPLACING PANELS PROVED TO BE DEFECTIVE. CARBON-CORE CORP. EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ANY LIABILITY FOR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES."


https://www.carbon-core.com/pdfs/pds-composite-panels.pdf

https://youtu.be/h4bApsXSavM




 
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I'm with you on this approach. I, personally, would not build a modest sized stitch and glue out of wood with these as options. I would consider coosa board as well were I considering a build. Think about the time savings not having to double and triple seal every scrap used or penetration. I have thought about it and made some calls, but I'm not building anything right now.
 
I love the idea of Coosa but dang, it is way out of my budget.

Cost Example:

BS1088 Okoume. 1/2 X 48 X 96 = $138.00
Carbon-Core Laminated Panel 1/2 X 48 X 96 = $175.00
Coosa Composite Board 1/2 X 48 X 96 = $457.48

.
 
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my only concern with the carbon-core would be delamination or separation when bonding to the skins, but then again, plywood can do that too.
 
I'm unfamiliar with carbon-core so I won't comment on it. I have had discussions with experienced boat builders who were against using coosa panel in place of plywood in a stitch and glue boat. Their reasons, going from memory here because these are discussions from over a decade ago, were it lacks impact resistance, does not bend, and will not take fasteners. They suggested it might could be used if the thinner panels were substituted and heavily glassed, but all that would come at the expense of weight. They said it was an ideal material for transoms because it has a very high compression strength, but isn't so good in shear and peel strength. The guys I spoke to said if you wanted to avoid plywood then foam core construction was the way to go.

Eric
 
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I called back today and spoke with a gentleman for clarification. I was told that these panels are compatible with epoxy resins and that I would have to build the boat just as I would with wood. (thickened epoxy fillets, glass cloth, tape, etc..) Scarf joints would have to be tape reinforced on both sides but he felt like the impact resistance of the completed boat would be very good and the boat would be plenty strong.

Much of me really wants to try these panels out due to the low maintenance aspect but the conservative part of me wants to stick with what's known. Fasteners is something I didn't consider and I'm also wondering how flexible/formable these panels are. Perhaps I'll see if I can get some sample pieces to play with prior to making a final decision.

The only thing that really gave me pause is that he couldn't provide me with a reference to a boat builder that is using these panels.. didn't give me a reason.


Thank you all for the discussion and input.


.
 
tod osier said:
I'm with you on this approach. I, personally, would not build a modest sized stitch and glue out of wood with these as options. I would consider coosa board as well were I considering a build. Think about the time savings not having to double and triple seal every scrap used or penetration. I have thought about it and made some calls, but I'm not building anything right now.
Click to expand...

Coosa would be a bad choice to build a stitch and glue boat. Couple of reasons.

1. The product does not bend unless you cut into it to get it to curve.
2. If memory serves (there were a few fiberglass reinforced polyurethane manufacturers around back when I was in the business), these are very hard on saw blades and drill bits.
3. It works great as a transom board and other structural applications but not as a board for a hull.

We were involved with the navy on these types of boards and a current ships construction uses something similar for walls and bridge uses but a hull - don't think so.

Mark W
 
ChadW said:
I called back today and spoke with a gentleman for clarification. I was told that these panels are compatible with epoxy resins and that I would have to build the boat just as I would with wood. (thickened epoxy fillets, glass cloth, tape, etc..) Scarf joints would have to be tape reinforced on both sides but he felt like the impact resistance of the completed boat would be very good and the boat would be plenty strong.

Much of me really wants to try these panels out due to the low maintenance aspect but the conservative part of me wants to stick with what's known. Fasteners is something I didn't consider and I'm also wondering how flexible/formable these panels are. Perhaps I'll see if I can get some sample pieces to play with prior to making a final decision.

The only thing that really gave me pause is that he couldn't provide me with a reference to a boat builder that is using these panels.. didn't give me a reason.


Thank you all for the discussion and input.


.
Click to expand...

If these panels are like other honeycomb core panels, flexibility will be an issue. There are many kinds of honeycomb panels used by boatbuilders but they are all interior applications and these panels are just the core, nothing attached to the outside as is the case of the panels you show.. I'd ask your rep if these can be easily curved, I think the answer will be a big no but I am not sure.

Mark
 
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