Keeping the dog in the boat

Rocky S

Rocky S

Member
Took my 2 year old Chessie out for her first hunt in the boat, and it didn't go well. I couldn't keep her in the boat!

Normally her basic obidience is very good, but today I had to physically hold on to her and make her sit. Then as soon as I let go of her she bolt and go play in the water. Then she would not come to me because she I would make her sit. I will start e-collar conditioning tomorrow to address the issue with "come", but what should I do about keeping her in the boat? Is there a safe way to tether her? Should I taker her kennel out on the boat and just get her out for retrieves? I'm sure she will settle down eventually, but what do I do in the mean time?!?!?!?!?!
 
Rocky,
Do you have some points on your gunwales that you could attach a cord to stretching it across the boat? If So tie a small loop in the middle and get one of those double ended snaps and use it to snap collar to the loop.
Yeh, I know, not the greatest way to control this issu, at least she'd be able to see what is going on and get some lines for retrieves.
I would suggest also using the ecollar in addition since it sounds as if she may still get a little rowdy even with this.
Hopefully with a retrieve or twoshe'll settle down.
Good luck.
Kevin
 
Rocky,
Be careful with the collar! They are a great tool, but can cause some problems if you jump in with them too quickly. I'd be hesitant to do something that dramatic in the middle of the season.

Early on, I found that bribery can work as well (jerky is a good choice for Bailey, but take your pick). Also, taking along a bumper and throwing some fun bumpers when things get slow used to keep her entertained.

Scott
 
Rocky:
You may not like this but here goes anyway. I think the e collars are a cop out--many times an excuse for not spending the time working on the problem. Take your time, don't be in a hurry and be patient. If the dog doesn't come around get rid of it. My two cents.
Wis boz
 
get back to basic obedience. The collar isn't going to help if the dog isn't handling on a lead. If you get your obedience down, the dog will sit in the boat when told. I like the collars, but not for teaching, there made for reinforcing what the dog already knows.
 
ok I am going to take the unpoular view here, I like the collars used properly. I work my dog regularly and like your is well mannered in the field and ride the boat and all fine but she does not get to actual hunt all the time , I just don't have room for her and two kids at the same time . she is about 2 and gets very excited when she goes hunting once I start shooting and droping birds she doesn't want to stay in the boat about like what your problem is. she does not what she is "supposed" to do and no do and is used to the collar if she gets to excited or not listening and wanting to go to far out (have to watch gators around here) the collar quickly turns here around . if you do go with a collar work the dog in the feild with the lightest setting only correct if she does something wrong until she gets used to the collar then you can take here hunting. after the dog knows the collar most of the ime you can just use a dummy collar and still see high % improvement in behavior.
A collar is simply a tool like your gun or boat it is not good or bad that all depends on who is handling the tool
 
I am a proponent of the e-collar if used properly and the dog is collar conditioned. I think the best way to accomplish this is to hook up with an amateur retriever training group in your area. Ask your vet if he knows of any hunt test or field trialers. These guys are always looking for a new training buddy, and will gladly exchange their expertise if you throw birds for their dogs.

I think it is very hard to teach the timing of corrections thru a book or even a video, but once trained, this is how I do it: Once your dog has been taught to "sit" and has been properly collar conditioned, it is pretty easy to set him up on the first bird of the season. You just handle your dog while your buddy shoots. Give your dog the "sit" command as the birds are coming in, tell him to "mark" just like in training, and be ready for him to break at the first shot, even if your buddy misses. Let him jump out of the boat, yell "SIT" and give him enough of a correction that he vocalizes, get him back in the boat under control, then send him for the bird as a reward for complying. Make sure he doesn't get to retrieve unless you get him under control. Don't try this without a lot of training, if the dog isn't properly prepared, the correction will cause your dog to bolt which is the exact opposite reaction you want. My 12 year old Golden broke on the first bird of every duck season just to see if the rules had changed. One correction on that bird was enough for the whole season, after that I didn't even put a collar on him.

Be careful about the dog training though, pretty soon your dog will be a little trained and you'll enter a hunt test, one ribbon and you'll be hooked. I started with and old gun dog about 14 years ago, he ended up with 27 ribbons, three AKC titles and two NAHRA titles, since him we have had four other retrievers and do nothing but dog train and travel the west running Field Trials. My dogs hunt all hunting season though, believe it or not many field trialers don't even hunt their dogs.
 
did I read that correctly? As in if you weren't using a collar..."beat the shit out of him until he cries out in pain"....

Aren't those both the same thing? No need really to answer that as I know the answer from the collar proponants already....how much more "humane" a shock is than anything else...sorry, but I call Bull Shit...you shock a dog hard enough to make him vocalize and your shocking the crap out of him...and excessively so...would you apply the same "electrical correction" to yourself when you screwup and set a decoy with the cord arounds its neck, or move your head and flare birds, or miss? All things that aren't what you "wanted". I doubt it, and why not? Cause it hurts and its excessive....

I'm sure that technique works for many, many dogs....but I question if its because they are "trained" or if they are just scared to death of not responding as required? I suppose that to those that feel like shocking a dog until it shouts out in pain to get it to do something that the end justifies the means and that it doesn't matter why a dog does something, because he's learned that thats what you want, or because he knows he'll be punished if he doesnt, and thats TRAINED by God....

Too much rationalizing for a dog? I don't think so but then I seem to have been blessed with dogs, meat dogs that would never compete in a trial, much less win a ribbon for sure, that have not required being "beat/shocked" into learning....

I still recall the belt that my Father wielded whenever he wanted to "teach" us something...and how his technique was also to "administer the punishment until the receipient "vocalized", even if it was involuntary ...thankfully we've, the collective WE, have grown out of that, at least for the most part....maybe one day we'll, the collective WE'LL, learn to train without inflicting punishment on our dogs that we wouldn't even remotely consider inflicting on ourselves when we make "mistakes"....

Lest you think I'm against "punishment" you'd be incorrect, I'm just against the senseless beating-shocking-stomping-choking-shooting-kicking-of dogs, all of which have been touted at one time or another as the "be all" of dog training, simply because the owner/trainer finds it easier to do in that manner than without all the abuse....

Steve
 
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Wow, my first day and I already offended somebody, I apologize.

This isn't the place to debate the use of the e-collar or other dog training corrections. I just want you to know that I love my dogs more than anything. My wife and I had to buy a king size bed in order for them to all have room sleeping on the bed. I have zapped myself with the collar and it is a shock. I don't believe in using the e-collar in anger. Thats why I suggested the guy was going to use an e-collar he join a training group to learn how. Most well bred dogs have the talent, drive and desire to be great hunting dogs with or without the use of an e-collar.

You don't know me other than these short post, I wish you could join me and my dogs for a hunt or dog training session, you might find me to be a little more humane than I appeared from that first post.
 
You have a couple of issues... First off, you have a chessie. She is water freaking... (lab owners will not understand this). This is a very trying time and important behavior to stop. The people at CBRS4ME.com are very helpful...

The other main issue is that her training is not solid. I have chosen to not use thee-collar, because I know that I will use it as a crutch.. but utilized wisely, it is a good tool...IMO. I may have misread one of the posts suggesting that you tie the dog to the boat... that is asking for a hung dog and/or a flipped boat.

Training is the key, if that isn't down to a T (or at least a small t) you will create more problems.

As far as use the e-collar and working with her on come... I bet you will not have any problem on land... work her in the water.
 
and the explaination....glad to hear that you don't view your dogs as machines whose faults are correctable with ever increasing application of electrical current until they comply....

My response wasn't aimed at you "specifically" even though it definately appeared that way...in its simplest form it was just a "counter point" to ALL of the people that I have had in my boat that I've watched, over the many years that people have been bringing dogs to hunt with me, that have used an electric collar to "remotely beat" a dog for something that I believe they simply did not understand...

I've seen dogs literally "knocked to their knees" for stuff like breaking, for not taking a straight line to the boat, (never mind they were fighting a tide for the first time in their lives), for not exiting the boat, (again for the first time in their lives), with the same vigor that they would do from land, for whining, for sleeping....you name it I've seen collars used to "train" incorrectly far more often than I've seen them used properly...and inteestingly that application is almost always "till they vocalize"....

You might well be one of the very few people in the training world, at least the one that I've been exposed to, who doesn't believe in using a collar as "punishment"...and if so then GOOD FOR YOU and MY APOLOGIES for lumping you in with that group of people....perhaps I read too much into your, "apply current until they vocalize"....

In reality the person with the problem here has issues with his dog that far exceed "breaking"...he stated in his original post that ...without restraint the dog left the boat to "play" in the water....thats a far different problem than "breaking" and clearly the issue here is one of basic obidience and a lack of understanding on the dogs part of "what is work" and "waht is play".....theres an ass load of work needed there before anyone puts a collar on that dog to correct his lack of understanding of what is expected of him.

With no offense meant to original poster if your dog won't sit on command and stay there when there is no stimulus other than water to distract him then THE LAST thing that you need is a device with which you can, and will, inflict pain on the dog when he doesn't do what you want him to probably because he doesn't know what that is

Owner frustration, and this is particularly so in hunting situations when the owner wants to hunt and not mess with something that he thinks the dog should already know, leads to that ever increasing application of force when the dog fails to "correct" from a lower application of power....at which point the cycle becomes relentless....shock, no improvement; SHOCK, still no improvement; SHHHOOOOOCCKKKKK, crap, still no improvement.....rarely, if ever, will someone without an in depth understanding of what a collar can, and can't do, with the knowledge of the incurable damage it can do when incorrectly applied, step out of the hunt and make an effort to determine what the dog is doing and why. Instead they progress through the different levels of stimulation, then jump up to bigger contacts, and when that doesn't work they start looking for the jumper cables and the "sizzle lean" button....

Anyway...good for you for being one of the few collar advocates that makes sure that the dog is trained before the application of force....I'd say that whether its boots or volts that you are one of the few.....

Steve
 
Be cafeful with the length of the leash. I had Guinness leashed with a 4 ft leash and he jumped off the bow after a duck when he was a puppy. I thought he broke his neck. After I figured out what caused the boat to almost capsize...
He was fine, and I got a 2 ft leash that seems to work a lot better. :>
 
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No E-collar UNLESS you pay a GOOD pro or a Good Amateur to help teach you how to use the thing. Make sure the "Pro" or Am knows chessis..Labs and Bay Dogs are a different breed and learn in different ways.... ... You love your dog that is obvious. An e-collar WILL mess her up more.. Trust me.... I would not keep her in a kennel on the boat, just for safety.. Last thing you want is the dog and kennel going over the side.... Did you take her out in the summer to get her acclimated to the boat?? Are you with a training group on the weekends? It takes time to get a good gun dog.. Take your time and never set the dog up to fail...Make it fun for the dog.. Don't pound on the dog she will never forgive you after all she is a Bay dog and not a lab.. I think you are expecting way too much out of your pup... If you live in Maryland you can come with us and train that mutt....
 
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Like Steve's dog, my dogs are boat dogs. They get the job done. The lab never gives up. He'll chase a crip to the moon. And they get easily excited at the start of the season, and calm down after a few hunts. I don't use the collar for punishment. That's not what they're for, and using them for such is counterproductive. I use the collar for 2 things only. First is to reinforce a command already given. The second is because of gators. Wazzer's hearing is slightly impaired and I want the connection to him in case he gets too far out. This reminds me; many collars have a tone only or buzz only button. All dogs, on occasion will do things that bewilder you, no matter how well trained, especially when hunting.

My .02,

Hitch

 
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Firstly....You can not teach anything...EVER with an E-collar...If you think You can...You are using it DEAD WRONG and shouldn't be using it.

The easiest way to teach a Dog to sit in a boat is use zero tollerance to NOT SITTING. Get the dog Used to being Short tied on Land...and in Training...then in the boat. If the short tie leash is more than a foot long it is too long....IE You move.....Your corrected. It is that simple.

MY lab Maggie was incredibly Game driven and a handful. But litterly 2 days in the boat with Zero Tollerance training...IE...move a toe...and your corrrected....and She has hunted for 5 yrs like a dream.

Gar
 
As previously mentioned, you need to tether the pup in the boat for now. I cinch a leash around the center seat at a point where he can't jump out. He's only 7 months old, so I don't expect much right now, other than having him out there with me. It's tough to do formal training on a young dog when you can be out there hunting. Springtime we'll be working on steadiness. Don't rush the e-collar.

Jim
 
Nowack hit it on the head. Chessies aint labs. You do a quickie intro to the collar, and shock that dog in the boat the next day, and all kind of things will happen, none of them good.

Sutton is over reacting. No surprise there. But hes doing it for what he sees as the best thing for the dog. No harm in that. Much rather have you take advice from someone overracting for the dogs sake, then see you strap a collar on and lite up a dog.

Abusive people are abusive. collars simply give them a way to be abusive AND lazy. Blaming a collar is like people who blame crime on guns.

I spend 2 weeks collar condtioning a dog. Then usually a month in the yard, before a collar correction is ever given in the field. And this is with well bred labs (read quick studies), in a structed training program by someone thats been around several hundred dogs being trained (myself) and trained one or two (ok several more) to pick up a duck. Your talking about a dog that takes much longer to teach anything to, that already has an issue, and gonna put a collar on and see what happens after a quickie intro... its a recipie for disater.
Not preaching, your doing the right thing by asking.

My 2 cents. Write this season and your dog in the boat off. Nothing that will happen this season is worth risking your dogs future, and possibly hurting him. See what happened, and use it as your catalsty for next season. Nothing new should ever happen to a dog on a hunt... everything encountered (cept maybe cripples diving) on a hunt should be old hat to a dog before opening day. Thats training. I own a boat to hunt out, I never use it cept for serious ice that freezes us out of the ricefields. But ever dog I train is taught to sit in a boat, ride in a boat, and hunt out of a boat. When i sell a dog to someone, I specifically ask them how they hunt... and then spend time replicathing that in training. When a new person can buy a dog on friday from me, never being around advanced dogs before, and hunt it on saturday, and its the best dog they've ever seen... its not because Im that great, I simply prepared the dog for what would happen, and prepared the person for what would happen. Working is smart is so much easier than just working hard...

Breaking on the shot can get a dog killed. No matter the method you correct, it's worthy of the boom being lowered. if the dog isnt prepared, shame on you, tie the dog up. If the dog is prepared, yet chooses to be disobediant, then a forceful correction is defiently warrentied. And there isnt get the dog back and let him get the bird. One foot past where hes supposed to be, and no bird. Every dog worth owning will take an asswhopping for a bird... denying the retreive after a correction for breaking sit is the best way to show dog it wont be tolerated.

What steve has witnessed and took exception to, is people with dogs that arent prepared getting their feelings hurt when their wonderdog doesnt live up to their ideal standards. I see it with people all the time. They let dog get away with small stuff all week, then on saturday in a group they want to criucfy the dog for a fault because the crowd is watching. Egos got no place in owning a dog, or being a parent to a kid. Being fair with a kid or dog is exactly the same, you teach them the rules, keep your standards consistant, and correct when nessessary. travis
 
Travis' post is a keeper. I'm training dog #2 beginning in 45 days. I got lucky with dog #1, dog #2 will be trained better because I'm going to get trained first.

This was a great thread.
 
Rocky,

As a couple have already mentioned this is a chessie issue. Owners of other breeds will not understand. That said, there is also a lot of wives tails out there about water freaks in the chessie community. This can be a very frustrating problem, some people give up and get another dog. I believe you can overcome this with training. Be patient. You may want to look into some of the training resources by Amy and John Dahl.

I believe force fetch is a good place to start in training for this. Your dog can't overcome the allure of the water. The e collar is a good tool. Not evil, very misunderstood. The best training plan out there, I believe, is Mike Lardy's. He has written a number of articles for the Retriever Journal and you can buy them spiral bound through his website totalretriever.com. Follow his first book, beginning through intermediate and you'll a very well trained dog.

There is a lot of myth surrounding chesapeakes. They are wonderful dogs. My wife married me because I was about the only man her dog Briar trusted. Briar had 2 legs on her SH but had begun to flare from gun stations. I helped her train Briar through that. She went on the finish her SH and beyond. My wife was an experienced trainer, Briar is the youngest CBR to earn a CD.

Follow a sound program. Train your own dog. You will both be better for it.

Good luck,

Tom Wall
 
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