Brain trust plumbing help...

tod osier

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We have several frost free lawn hydrants on the property here in Wyoming. I have one that started leaking (we were messing in the area and apparently jostled a fitting that wasn't, but now is leaking). The alternative to an easy fix is digging a 7' deep hole in the ground, so I'm hoping to avoid that.

The unit itself works absolutely fine.

The leak that just started is between the brass fitting that contains the valve at the bottom of the hydrant 7' down (3/4 inch female pipe thread) and the elbow that it is attached to (3/4 inch male pipe thread). I noticed well pump cycling when it shouldn't and opening and closing the supply inside the house shows pressure bleeding down. We are very lucky because this hydrant is installed inside a 4" piece of PVC (7' deep straight into the ground) - these are usually buried in the soil and have to be dug up to be messed with (they can be serviced from above/inside to rebuild, but that isn't the issue).

I removed the hydrant at the joint 7' down and checked it for function and reinstalled. There was no pipe dope on the joint on removal, but looking with a fiber optic inspection camera there are remnants of teflon tape down there. I put it together with a bunch of pipe dope and it was pretty clear that the joint bottomed out rather than tightened on the tapered threads (fiber optic camera confirms that that the female is/was deeply seated on the male). The leak is at the junction, confirmed with the camera, I'm seeing weeping there.

Were the male thread available I'd wrap with a generous amount of thick teflon tape over pipe dope, but that isn't an option. I've searched for a curing type pipe dope product, but can't seem to find something suited for the job. I could epoxy the joint together (I'd never get it apart, but I'd be ahead for now). It seems like some sort of RTV or curing caulk would work, but I don't have an idea of something suited for the continuous wet. Off label use would be fine if someone has an idea of something that would seal and hopefully be removable in the future.

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Photo just because I have it. The top is the brass valve with the female thread and the bottom is the male elbow. You can see my pipe dope and the remnants of the teflon tape. You can see how deeply the threads are engaged.


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Todd,
I am no plumber but have noticed a disturbing trend in fittings used for plumbing. Had a near miss with both the dishwasher and washing machine where folks used copper coated pot metal fittings and dissimilar metal corrosion took place and the fittings leaked. I hope that is not the case in this instance. RM
 
Assuming both fittings are npt, they normally don't bottom out if undamaged. One or the other is probably stripped or cracked. The 4" pvc sleeve may allow just enough cold air in to have frozen the pipe last winter. Or a family member of one of the prairie dogs you whacked holds a grudge. All else failing, you might try jb weld liberally applied in the female fitting. Otherwise, my guess is break out a shovel.
 
If you'd asked about this 30 years ago I'd have sent you a new Clayton Mark yard hydrant with a replacement valve like this. I lead the team that designed this. Anyway you need to pull the hydrant and replace the bass valve body and rubber plunger. It doesn't matter what manufacturer you replace it with. They all work the same. Amtrol bought Clayton Mark in the 90s and ended my job as well as this valve. They all use the rubber plunger system today. Plumbers putty is recommended but I always had good results using the heavier Teflon tape the gas companies use. Hardware store will tell you it's not for water but use your best judgement. Options for better tubing connections are shark bite or Aqua Lock connectors for PEX tubing. Of course I don't know what material you are using for water supply line. Just something you might think about.
 

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Todd,
I am no plumber but have noticed a disturbing trend in fittings used for plumbing. Had a near miss with both the dishwasher and washing machine where folks used copper coated pot metal fittings and dissimilar metal corrosion took place and the fittings leaked. I hope that is not the case in this instance. RM
they are brass, no question
 
Assuming both fittings are npt, they normally don't bottom out if undamaged. One or the other is probably stripped or cracked. The 4" pvc sleeve may allow just enough cold air in to have frozen the pipe last winter. Or a family member of one of the prairie dogs you whacked holds a grudge. All else failing, you might try jb weld liberally applied in the female fitting. Otherwise, my guess is break out a shovel.

Female is sound since I had it in hand and pressurized it with a nipple threaded on to a hose and it behaved as expected. Male thread is suspect for sure, maybe a small or they used a non tapered thread. It for sure did not load like a tapered thread and seemed to bottom out hitting a wall rather than loading up slowly. I'm betting gluing it would work. I was hoping for an idea between glue and pipe dope, maybe something moisture curing. Maybe some 3M 4200?!?!?!
 
Would not think that interference fit threads would bottom out. A crack perhaps? RM

The female is good, I don't know about he male. The way it bottomed out I was thinking it might not be tapered. Either way, it seems like there should be a material that I could goop on there, let it cure and be good to go. The leak isn't that bad, but it isn't just drips, it is a flow.
 
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If you'd asked about this 30 years ago I'd have sent you a new Clayton Mark yard hydrant with a replacement valve like this. I lead the team that designed this. Anyway you need to pull the hydrant and replace the bass valve body and rubber plunger. It doesn't matter what manufacturer you replace it with. They all work the same. Amtrol bought Clayton Mark in the 90s and ended my job as well as this valve. They all use the rubber plunger system today. Plumbers putty is recommended but I always had good results using the heavier Teflon tape the gas companies use. Hardware store will tell you it's not for water but use your best judgement. Options for better tubing connections are shark bite or Aqua Lock connectors for PEX tubing. Of course I don't know what material you are using for water supply line. Just something you might think about.

Hydrant works fine if a nipple is threaded in and a hose attached. I rebuilt it as step one. There is no way to apply teflon tape at the bottom of a 7’ deep 4" diameter hole.
 
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Maybe some 3M 4200?!?!?!
Can't hurt to try, you might get lucky and avoid some digging. But to my mind if the male section is cracked there are low odds of getting enough of anything in the right place via a coating of the female threads to hold up to pressurized water for long (without putting enough in to clog the hydrant). Good luck.
 
The more I think about it, the more I think dig it up and replace the fittings. I'm suspicious of the 4" sleeve concept to begin with. Cold air gains access via the 4" sleeve to freeze the irrigation pipes in winter, and unsupported plastic pipe can rattle around during on/off irrigation cycles stressing the joints and fittings. You mentioned jostling, another cause for failure of unsupported pipe and fittings. If the water service is turned on and any part fails when you aren't there, you risk a yard gusher leading to a well pump burnout. I guess the 4200 might be a short term fix, but I wouldn't trust it long term. Refer to the current "Going for the dumbest mistake of the years award" thread. :D
 
The more I think about it, the more I think dig it up and replace the fittings. I'm suspicious of the 4" sleeve concept to begin with. Cold air gains access via the 4" sleeve to freeze the irrigation pipes in winter, and unsupported plastic pipe can rattle around during on/off irrigation cycles stressing the joints and fittings. You mentioned jostling, another cause for failure of unsupported pipe and fittings. If the water service is turned on and any part fails when you aren't there, you risk a yard gusher leading to a well pump burnout. I guess the 4200 might be a short term fix, but I wouldn't trust it long term. Refer to the current "Going for the dumbest mistake of the years award" thread. :D
I’m with you on the doing it right, as that is my standard operating procedure. I'm just not seeing the male fitting being cracked given how it is behaving (bottoming out in the female). I'm not thinking to fix any cracks, just to get a material that will offer some sealant property for ill fitting threads.

Just to add some detail on the setup... The hydrant is sleeved with insulation inside the 4” pvc (full diameter, not regular pipe insulation 1" ID and 4" OD) and capped with spray foam and a cap, so it is pretty insulated at depth.

Maybe I'm just feeling lazy, we have been working on the pite prep for the new barn and digging that hole does not sound like fun. We have moved a lot of dirt this past month.

I'm going to take it apart and scope the male fitting.
 
Maybe you mentioned it before and I missed it...is the male fitting a nipple intended to be sealed with an o-ring? That would explain why it bottoms out. Just a thought. In any case, my crystal ball has you and your shovel hard at work. It sucks.
 
Maybe you mentioned it before and I missed it...is the male fitting a nipple intended to be sealed with an o-ring? That would explain why it bottoms out. Just a thought. In any case, my crystal ball has you and your shovel hard at work. It sucks.

The male could be anything, it should be tapered pipe thread to match what I know is a female pipe thread. The female for sure isn't meant to be gasketed - it is a rough casting other than the threads. I didn't have the fiber optic inspection camera when I had it apart the first time. All I know is the male looked good from above with a flashlight looking down.

I think my plan at this point is to take the thing apart again and to check out the male thread with the inspection camera. I think my pipe dope of choice is going to be some water pump gasket RTV, and put it back together, let it cure and see what happens. I can easily shut it off inside the house with a ball valve. The main use is for lawn irrigation and I can limp along with it for a while. I need to dig in another lawn hydrant in the next couple years. Maybe wait to dig that up until I have a mini excavator on site.
 
I’m with you on the doing it right, as that is my standard operating procedure. I'm just not seeing the male fitting being cracked given how it is behaving (bottoming out in the female). I'm not thinking to fix any cracks, just to get a material that will offer some sealant property for ill fitting threads.

Just to add some detail on the setup... The hydrant is sleeved with insulation inside the 4” pvc (full diameter, not regular pipe insulation 1" ID and 4" OD) and capped with spray foam and a cap, so it is pretty insulated at depth.

Maybe I'm just feeling lazy, we have been working on the pite prep for the new barn and digging that hole does not sound like fun. We have moved a lot of dirt this past month.

I'm going to take it apart and scope the male fitting.
So let me understand. You unscrewed the head. Then you pulled the rod and plunger. Then you uncrewed the outside pipe from the brass fitting and pulled the stand pipe or are you looking down the stand pipe in the photo you uploaded?
 
So let me understand. You unscrewed the head. Then you pulled the rod and plunger. Then you uncrewed the outside pipe from the brass fitting and pulled the stand pipe or are you looking down the stand pipe in the photo you uploaded?

Didn't make any progress today, had to go fishing this morning. :)

The photo is of the junction of the valve bottom at the bottom end of the standpipe and the elbow it screws into. The standpipe is in 4" PVC that allows you to pull the whole thing (as well as pull the rod and plunger via unscrewing the head the typical way). I'm going to pull it apart tomorrow morning before the sun gets too bright and stick the camera down there to investigate.

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