BBSB question revisited.

D

Dave B

Active member
On the previous BBSB post I asked if my Zack widgeon was a true BBSB . I was told no due to the straight sides. So, I'm trying to just learn a bit more about BBSB designs or modifications.

A good place to start may be for one of the experts on the original boats to explain exactly what conditions they were designed for, what their strengths are and what their weakness are . Then we could go on , if you are willing, to discuss and explain how a particular design modification changed those strengths or weakness.

Take my Zack Taylor widgeon. I have run it in very shallow water. The limiting factor as to how shallow so far has been teh motor depth. I can go intoo water that would be about boot top high, maybe a bit less. I also use it on the Bay of Green Bay in Wi and have had it out in 4 footers and felt safe. Wouldn't want to be out in that if I couldn't see the waves but have no problem if its light. I never use the dodger and have not had problems getting wet with spray. Its slow but that is becuz its a displacement hull and I run a 5 hp brigs and stratton on it. Its small enough to haul up in the weeds or down to the water. Its a single hunter boat. Has lots of rocker, the curved deck, etc. Rows fine.

So, what does the straight sides, add or take away from a "true" BBSB design.

looking forward to learning something.
 
On the previous BBSB post I asked if my Zack widgeon was a true BBSB . I was told no due to the straight sides. So, I'm trying to just learn a bit more about BBSB designs or modifications.

A good place to start may be for one of the experts on the original boats to explain exactly what conditions they were designed for, what their strengths are and what their weakness are . Then we could go on , if you are willing, to discuss and explain how a particular design modification changed those strengths or weakness.

Take my Zack Taylor widgeon. I have run it in very shallow water. The limiting factor as to how shallow so far has been teh motor depth. I can go intoo water that would be about boot top high, maybe a bit less. I also use it on the Bay of Green Bay in Wi and have had it out in 4 footers and felt safe. Wouldn't want to be out in that if I couldn't see the waves but have no problem if its light. I never use the dodger and have not had problems getting wet with spray. Its slow but that is becuz its a displacement hull and I run a 5 hp brigs and stratton on it. Its small enough to haul up in the weeds or down to the water. Its a single hunter boat. Has lots of rocker, the curved deck, etc. Rows fine.

So, what does the straight sides, add or take away from a "true" BBSB design.

looking forward to learning something.
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No offense, but there is plenty of information out there for you to answer the questions you ask. In fact, most of the information you ask for is contained in the thread you are referring to (read Steve's defense of the traditional BBSB). If you really want to know the answer to those questions,... You can't be spoon fed, you need to figure out for yourself what a BBSB is and why what you have is not.

On the other hand, does it matter to you if you have a BBSB? you seem happy with your boat. If you find out that it isn't a BBSB will it not get you home next time?
 
Todd,

No it doesn't bother me at all to discover my boat is not a "true" BBSB. As you said, I am very happy on how the boat works. At times I do wish it were bit bigger so I could carry more dekes. But, I have found out that boats are like garages. No matter how big they are, you are always going to fill them up.

Nor am I looking to be "spoon fed" information. I did read the post in question and guess I missed the part where anyone said what the disadvantage/advantage of the straight sides were. I assume it might be that the original bbsb had rounded sides since they were to be sailed and a rounded side was needed so you could "heel" over where a straight side might "catch" in the water. Could be I'm wrong, I'm not an expert on how design changes affect performance.

I used to professionaly train dogs and visited a lot of dog sites. When folks would ask about force fetching for example, some people would tell them to do a search of the site, others would tell then to get this or that book or dvd. I would try my best to explain the reasons for ff, the pros and cons, etc. I did this even though I had done it a hundred times. Why, because the question was asked on a discussion forum and the fun ( IMO) is to have open discussions with varying people and ideas. I enjoy hearing what others have to say. Just thought this would be a great topic to expound on as I found the info in the other post intersting. Sorry. I was not aware that everything to be said or learned had been given out in that one post.
 
Todd,

No it doesn't bother me at all to discover my boat is not a "true" BBSB. As you said, I am very happy on how the boat works. At times I do wish it were bit bigger so I could carry more dekes. But, I have found out that boats are like garages. No matter how big they are, you are always going to fill them up.

Nor am I looking to be "spoon fed" information. I did read the post in question and guess I missed the part where anyone said what the disadvantage/advantage of the straight sides were. I assume it might be that the original bbsb had rounded sides since they were to be sailed and a rounded side was needed so you could "heel" over where a straight side might "catch" in the water. Could be I'm wrong, I'm not an expert on how design changes affect performance.

I used to professionaly train dogs and visited a lot of dog sites. When folks would ask about force fetching for example, some people would tell them to do a search of the site, others would tell then to get this or that book or dvd. I would try my best to explain the reasons for ff, the pros and cons, etc. I did this even though I had done it a hundred times. Why, because the question was asked on a discussion forum and the fun ( IMO) is to have open discussions with varying people and ideas. I enjoy hearing what others have to say. Just thought this would be a great topic to expound on as I found the info in the other post intersting. Sorry. I was not aware that everything to be said or learned had been given out in that one post.
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Straight sides makes it not a BBSB, that was the comment. A BBSB has a feather edge (which is not a rounded corner). No one said straight sides was inferior, just that a BBSB doesn't have them and if a boat has straight sides it isn't a traditional BBSB (there are other reasons why). This is a "form" argument and you are dealing with "function". Straight sides could be 1000 times better than a feather edge, but it wouldn't make your boat a BBSB.

My point is that if you did some reading and looking at pictures of BBSB's you would look at your boat, especially the hull and sides and "Whoa, that aint a BBSB". Does it hunt like a BBSB and look like one from above, sure, pretty much. Does any of this matter?

If a circle has a straight side is it still a circle?

T
 
Dave, Don't let Tod get your panties in a bind, he's a [font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]college[/font] Prof, and he'd tell his best students the same thing.

To quote Dr. William Bruette from his 1929 Book "American Duck, Goose, and Brant Shooting": "The Barnegat Bay Boat or sneak box is probably the best known duck boat in the United States and justly so because it incorporates all of the features of the other types and in addition it has other advantages too numerous to mention, writes Mr. William F. Crosby, the naval expert, who has drawn the plans which follow.... From the standpoint of naval architecture it is far ahead of most types and it is a fine sea boat, being capable of riding out heavy blows with the "crew" well protected by a canvas spray hood.... The sneak box is well adapted for use with an ordinary sprit-sail, one of the simplest rigs and one which is highly successful. The small hatchway amidships....

The sneak box is 12 ft long and 4 feet wide. It's round bottom and round decked..."

What all this means is the the BBSB was evolved in the late 1800s before outboards for the serious bayman who made his living on the marshes. It's a one man sail boat designed for guys substantially smaller than many of us today. It's feather edge casts very small shadow (like an open water layout) to help hide it. Major advantages are easy to hide, very shallow draft without sacrificing sea worthiness. It actually rows well unlike most of the other boats we use. For the "classic" waterfowler a wood BBSB goes fantastically with their hand carved decoys and two shoot guns. The drawbacks are that it's slow, and it's too small to take your buddies out with you. The average duck hunter may be much happier with his jon boat, blind, heater and maybe a stove for breakfast.

With the evolution of outboards and plywood the classic plank round bottom/feather edged BBSB has morf'd again. The rocker has been reduced for speed and the feather edge eliminated on others to allow the use of plywood in it's construction. The sail rig has pretty much disappeared, as who in their right mind wants to sail into the sub freezing December pre-dawn darkness.

Best,
Scott
 
the big question Scott is what the "F" are we diong on the computer? I'm headed out now. I hope you just got in.
 
I've got to dress Sat's birds and then take Marsh out for Pheasant. Plus it's Barb's B-Day.

Get out there!
Scott
 
You need to read the story of the guy who went from Pennsylvania to New Orleans to Florida in a BBSB back in the 1800's. I can't remember the name but you can read the whole story free online....I have the link at home. The BBSB was what most small duck boats have evolved from. Like was said above, motors and materials have changed things. The need for speed, the need for decoys, the need for companionship, the want of a dog, the opening up of the Midwest...etc..etc. The flat sides of the MLB boat and it's flat bottom preclude it from being a true BBSB which was shaped like a decked spoon. Zack Taylor made it to be an easily constructed small one man boat for the masses...Mark pays him for the right to copy it in fiberglass. It makes a great big water layout boat without a motor too..just row out...set your dekes, anchor up, shoot ducks, row out to get them and repeat....self tendered layout hunting.
 
To add to what Scott said. The BBSB was designed for shallow water and hid well but to get to different places it some times had to cross rougher water and as mention a hull with rocker makes this much safer. As you have found out in your Wigeon the rocker lifts the boat up on the wave instead of cutting though the wave. This is most important in a following sea. Most boats are sunk from behind not from the front. In Minn. where I first heard about back trolling for Walleyes they soon found out this fact and put a wedge on the back of the boat on each side of the motor. This would lift the back of the boat when a wave hit it. The BBSB has less rocker to the rear than the front so if things got extremely bad the hunter would keep the bow to the waves and with the spray shield would survive as long as he did not run out of energy with the oars. Before motors the hunters would often leave the day before the hunt and sail to the area they were gong to hunt and sleep in the BBSB in a sheltered place. Often they stayed several days.
 
Scott,

Don't worry, Todd didn't get my panties in a wad. I just get a kick out of people that tell folks on a discussion board " the information you ask for is out there, all you need to do is look" . I look at these types of sites as a discussion board where you can ask a question and get a variety of interesting and often divergent opinions. Its the discussion and sense of "community" that I enjoy. I know if I want to get just the dry stories and facts I'd go to the library. I'm also not surprised to learn that Todd is a professor.

I also maybe didn't explain myself and what I was looking for. Maybe this will explain it better. Maybe not. I was interested by the previous post on BBSBs as to WHY folks made the modifications to to the original BBSB that they have done.

For example, it has been pointed out that the widgeon has the straight sides and therefore not a true BBSB. It has been said that the straight sides were mainly so that the boat could be made using modern techniques and materials ( plywood). O.K. , that I can understand. I was also interested in how this change positively or negatively changed the function of the boat.

After all, no one changes a boat design without trying to get some sort of improvement in one area or another. Obviously this may mean that by gaining that improvement, they had to give up advantages in another area.

Here is an example: I made a wooden layout from plans I bought. It gave you an option of dropping the box at the foot for added foot room. Improvement = more foot room for larger hunters. Negative = the box floats higher which may mean added water slap or you may have to add weight in the foot section to get the box on the water as it should. When I built my next model out of fiberglass I added deck height to get the added foot room. This meant I gained the foot room , lost the slap, but the negative was sslightly higher profile out of the water.

I guess my interest was in how and why the original BBSB design has evolved, and how the changes made positively AND negatively impacted the orignal design intent.

thanks for the info so far.

baumy
 
Scott,

Don't worry, Todd didn't get my panties in a wad. I just get a kick out of people that tell folks on a discussion board " the information you ask for is out there, all you need to do is look" . I look at these types of sites as a discussion board where you can ask a question and get a variety of interesting and often divergent opinions. Its the discussion and sense of "community" that I enjoy. I know if I want to get just the dry stories and facts I'd go to the library. I'm also not surprised to learn that Todd is a professor.

I also maybe didn't explain myself and what I was looking for. Maybe this will explain it better. Maybe not. I was interested by the previous post on BBSBs as to WHY folks made the modifications to to the original BBSB that they have done.

For example, it has been pointed out that the widgeon has the straight sides and therefore not a true BBSB. It has been said that the straight sides were mainly so that the boat could be made using modern techniques and materials ( plywood). O.K. , that I can understand. I was also interested in how this change positively or negatively changed the function of the boat.

After all, no one changes a boat design without trying to get some sort of improvement in one area or another. Obviously this may mean that by gaining that improvement, they had to give up advantages in another area.

Here is an example: I made a wooden layout from plans I bought. It gave you an option of dropping the box at the foot for added foot room. Improvement = more foot room for larger hunters. Negative = the box floats higher which may mean added water slap or you may have to add weight in the foot section to get the box on the water as it should. When I built my next model out of fiberglass I added deck height to get the added foot room. This meant I gained the foot room , lost the slap, but the negative was sslightly higher profile out of the water.

I guess my interest was in how and why the original BBSB design has evolved, and how the changes made positively AND negatively impacted the orignal design intent.

thanks for the info so far.

baumy
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You know Dave we all get kicks out of different things, that is what makes the world such an interesting place.

Know what I get a kick out of? Someone who comes to a duck boat discussion board a says that they feel "safe" in a 12' boat with a 5 hp motor in 4' waves.
 
Another advantage to the feather edge design (as told to me by a well known traditional BBSB builder) is that waves coming from the side will not "push" the boat in the direction of the wave travel as readily as they would a slab sided boat. The feather edge design tends to cut the waves allowing the wave to go below the hull (and some to wash over the deck in a real blow.) The feather edge should also result in less splashing, making the ride drier.

I would think the same thing applies to higher winds deflecting the direction of the boat except that the modern spray dodger is so big (and tall) that it would cancel out this advantage.
Jim
PS Dave Clark -- I'm glad to see you are weighing in on the post.

 
Thanks Jim,

That makes sense. So, other than the ability to use plywood and for ease of building, are there any other advantages to the straighter sides on the Widgeon ?

Todd,

Since you get a kick out of my feeling safe in a Modified BBSB in 4 ft waves with a 5 hp you should get a hoot out of these also: I feel safe going into burning buildings, confined spaces, Diving with sharks, solo packing in the Canadian back country for 2 weeks, photographing bears, hang gliding and sky diving. I've found if you have confidence in your abilities and your equipment, know the limitations of both, are aware of the surrounding conditions, and go prepared, you can feel comfortable in many adverse conditions.

Thanks for all the interesting points many have pointed out.

Dave B
 
Todd,

Since you get a kick out of my feeling safe in a Modified BBSB in 4 ft waves with a 5 hp you should get a hoot out of these also: I feel safe going into burning buildings, confined spaces, Diving with sharks, solo packing in the Canadian back country for 2 weeks, photographing bears, hang gliding and sky diving. I've found if you have confidence in your abilities and your equipment, know the limitations of both, are aware of the surrounding conditions, and go prepared, you can feel comfortable in many adverse conditions.

Thanks for all the interesting points many have pointed out.

Dave B
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I quess after such a crushing blow to my manhood, I can only slink away and take out my frustration on my orchids, they do need an aggressive pruning.

Since we know know you are good with a camera, next time you are out in 4' waves in your 12' boat with a 5 hp motor, why don't you take some pictures of what that looks like for the meek like me.

T
 
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I'd like to oblige you Todd but as I mentioned, a smart person knows the limitations of themselves and their equipment. I have too much invested in my equipment to take it out hunting in big waves. Water and electronic photo equipment do not play well together.

Wasn't trying to wound your manhood. Sorry you took it that way. So enjoy your orchids and prune away and hope you have a good hunt with plenty of days with limits.
 
Dave,
I don't know much about the BBSB but a boat with straight sides gives more initial stability.
In other words in takes more effort to start the boat rolling. The downside is that once
it starts going it takes more to stop it as well.

The debate between which is better, safety-wise, has been fought out the Small Boat
Journal by people alot smarter than I.

But if I can summarize what I think the results are:

Straight sides- Harder to start tipping
Round Bilges- gives more feel or warning before rolling

Does that help?
 
Dave
I think, I never met Zac, that he went with the straight sides due to an easier build with ply wood. In the 1800's planked boats were a common waterfront item and most were built with white oak frames and cedar or pine planks. The hard part about building a traditional built BBSB is that no curve in the hull stays the same, but changes constantly as it moves away from the start. The old time builders called it "fair" or "fairing" and it is the thing that makes older wood hulls have the look they do. I am not certain that a tank test would show a plywood hull built with simple developable curve shapes was vastly inferior to a constantly changing curved hull form in carvel plank construction. But for someone willing to put the time or money into a traditional hull it is just not the same as a more modern hull built with sheet goods. Do not take that to say, "Inferior" in any significant way, just different. Also important to mention "Coast Guard Safety Standards" that never existed in 1890. Both boats will kill ducks. So will plastic decoys. But if MLBob offered me the shot at gunning over a set of his frond birds, well you can be sure I would pick to spend my afternoon watching his work bob in the wind as the sun set.
The old time builders are gone. A few have taken up the cause and are very good at what they do, but not at a wallmart price for sure.
Any boat you use is better than a desk at work, so enjoy.
 
Thanks to the guys that have shared their information on the boat designs. Its interesting what you can learn from folks sharing their insights. I do want to clarify that I am in no way unhappy with the boat I have , well , except for the limited decoy room and that of course is subjective. I bring along 4 dozen e allens in 12 pocket bags inside the boat, 2 more dozen in slotted bags across across the front of the cockpit and then 2 regular mesh decoy bags with canada floaters strapped on the deck. More than enough for most I know but I hunt big water with rafts of birds that number in the hundreds during peak times.

Anyway, I hope this thread won't just be about BBSBs ( although since I have a "modified" one, that is what I was mainly interested in) . I also hope others on here who "modified" a particular boat design , whether a BBSB or not, will chime in with what they changed, why they did , and if the change brought about the desired result they hoped for and were there any "negative" trade off by making the changes.

I appreciate the conversation.

Dave B AKA, baumy
 
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